Augustine

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VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
November 13 is the 1,650th anniversary of Augustine's birth.

Augustine of Hippo was born on November 13, 354. He is considered the greatest of the early Church Fathers. He was the author of Confessions and City of God, among other classic theological writings. He had a tremendous influence both on the early Church and on the Reformation. A brief biographical sketch may be found here: http://www.bartleby.com/65/au/AugustnSt.html
 
Do some of you want to help me with this? I know of Augustine's great work concerning Pelagius, etc. but I have never heard of these claims (from someone trying to refute the Doctrines of Grace):


Somewhere around 200A.D. an man by the name of Augustine who is revered today as being Holy and Pious, ( Especially by the Catholic church) decided that people were too stupid and uneducated to understand for themselves the truths revealed in the scriptures. He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for. Only the priests or elders of the church were allowed to read the scripture. That ushered in the dark ages. About 400 or 500 A.D. Constantine decided to be a "Christian" and since he was the emperor, the total power on earth, he decided that every one was going to be a Christian. So he put the sword to the people's throat and if they refused to accept Christ he slit their throat. He was an instrument of Satan and adultered true Christianity, an already crippled Christianity that was started by taking the Word of God out of the hands of the people.
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When I challenged him to prove this he backed down. Has anyone heard of this before specifically: "He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for. " ?

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by 4ndr3w]
 
Keep challenging him to prove it; be obnoxoius about it ;). And if you know his facts are false, bring those up as well.
 
Somewhere around 200A.D.

WRONG

an man by the name of Augustine who is revered today as being Holy and Pious, ( Especially by the Catholic church) decided that people were too stupid and uneducated to understand for themselves the truths revealed in the scriptures.


WRONG

He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for.

WRONG

Only the priests or elders of the church were allowed to read the scripture.

From about 1000-1300 AD.

That ushered in the dark ages.

WRONG

About 400 or 500 A.D. Constantine decided to be a "Christian" and since he was the emperor, the total power on earth, he decided that every one was going to be a Christian.

SORTA RIGHT, kinda, wrong dates and wrong "decision."

So he put the sword to the people's throat and if they refused to accept Christ he slit their throat. He was an instrument of Satan and adultered true Christianity, an already crippled Christianity that was started by taking the Word of God out of the hands of the people.

WRONG

He needs to read a basic history book!
 
The Scriptures (except for the Psalms) were taken out of the hands of the people by the Synod of Toulouse, by restricting them to Latin.
 
Augustine's life was alway an encouragment for me as he paralleled many of my own trials yet was powerfully used by God.
 
Originally posted by 4ndr3w
Do some of you want to help me with this? I know of Augustine's great work concerning Pelagius, etc. but I have never heard of these claims (from someone trying to refute the Doctrines of Grace):


Somewhere around 200A.D. an man by the name of Augustine who is revered today as being Holy and Pious, ( Especially by the Catholic church) decided that people were too stupid and uneducated to understand for themselves the truths revealed in the scriptures. He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for. Only the priests or elders of the church were allowed to read the scripture. That ushered in the dark ages. About 400 or 500 A.D. Constantine decided to be a "Christian" and since he was the emperor, the total power on earth, he decided that every one was going to be a Christian. So he put the sword to the people's throat and if they refused to accept Christ he slit their throat. He was an instrument of Satan and adultered true Christianity, an already crippled Christianity that was started by taking the Word of God out of the hands of the people.
Click to expand...

When I challenged him to prove this he backed down. Has anyone heard of this before specifically: "He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for. " ?

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by 4ndr3w]
Click to expand...

Augustine lived from 354 to 430. Constantine lived from c.280 to 337. As Fred noted, the Council of Toulouse in 1229 forbade the possession of the Bible by the laity:


Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
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This was reaffirmed by the Council of Trent in 1559 which put the Bible on the Index of Forbidden Books.

This gentleman needs research skills as much as he needs an honest approach to the issues at hand.
 
I've never heard of the Synod of Toulouse before. All I have been able to find online so far is two sentences from Schaff:

"The synod of Toulouse, 1229, presided over by the papal legate, celebrated the close of the Albigensian crusades and perfected the code of the Inquisition. It has an unenviable distinction among the great synods on account of its decree forbidding laymen to have the Bible in their possession."

Can anyone direct me to some more information on it. I'm looking for both the Protestant and Catholic writtings on it since I haven't seen either before.

Bryan
SDG
 
Originally posted by Bryan
I've never heard of the Synod of Toulouse before. All I have been able to find online so far is two sentences from Schaff:

"The synod of Toulouse, 1229, presided over by the papal legate, celebrated the close of the Albigensian crusades and perfected the code of the Inquisition. It has an unenviable distinction among the great synods on account of its decree forbidding laymen to have the Bible in their possession."

Can anyone direct me to some more information on it. I'm looking for both the Protestant and Catholic writtings on it since I haven't seen either before.

Bryan
SDG
Click to expand...

When studying the 1229 Toulouse decree banning the Scriptures from the laity, some points should be kept in mind.

* It was Jerome (c.340-420) who first translated the Scriptures into what we call today the Latin Vulgate. This version eventually became the only translation sanctioned by the Roman Church.

* The 1229 Council or Synod under consideration was located in Toulouse, France, not in Valencia, Spain, as has been asserted by some.

* Roman apologists do not dispute that the Council or Synod forbade the Scriptures to the laity but claim that the reason had to do with an Albigensian translation of the Scriptures into the vernacular of the day which had errors which Rome was trying to combat.

* Other similar decrees have been issued by Popes and Councils besides Toulouse, as noted in the resources below.

* It was not until the Counter-Reformation, which noted the great success that printed Protestant translations of the Scriptures were having, that the Roman Catholic Church authorized its own English translation (from the Latin Vulgate, not the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts) of the Bible, the Rheims-Douay version (1582-1610).

* Pope Gregory (c.540-604) required church services to be in Latin. This requirement lasted until Vatican II allowed services in vernacular tongues in the 1960's.

Here are some resources on the 1229 Council (or Synod) of Toulouse and the specific issue of its decree keeping the Scriptures from the laity (I do not endorse all of the information found at these sites, and specifically caution readers that the Popish resources are filled with errors both factual and theological):

Protestant sources

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/romedestroyed.htm

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc7/htm/ii.i.vi.htm

http://www.williamtyndale.com/0biblehistory.htm

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/ch/CH.Arnold.RMT.1.HTML

Popish sources (be forewarned)

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd01264.htm

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/bible.htm

http://www.catholicsites.com/beggarking/answer/errors2.html

http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/latinbible.html

[Edited on 17-11-2004 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
Fred Greco points out that the Synod of Toulouse in 1229 effectively banned Bible possession by the general church going public except for the Psalms, in part by prohibiting any version but the Vulgate.
St. Jerome and St Augustine would have been horriifed. The whole purpose of the Vulgate was that the Western Church would have one faithful translation in the language of the common man.
 
Originally posted by 4ndr3w
Do some of you want to help me with this? I know of Augustine's great work concerning Pelagius, etc. but I have never heard of these claims (from someone trying to refute the Doctrines of Grace):

Somewhere around 200A.D. an man by the name of Augustine who is revered today as being Holy and Pious, ( Especially by the Catholic church) decided that people were too stupid and uneducated to understand for themselves the truths revealed in the scriptures. He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for. Only the priests or elders of the church were allowed to read the scripture. That ushered in the dark ages. About 400 or 500 A.D. Constantine decided to be a "Christian" and since he was the emperor, the total power on earth, he decided that every one was going to be a Christian. So he put the sword to the people's throat and if they refused to accept Christ he slit their throat. He was an instrument of Satan and adultered true Christianity, an already crippled Christianity that was started by taking the Word of God out of the hands of the people.
Click to expand...

When I challenged him to prove this he backed down. Has anyone heard of this before specifically: "He was instrumental in taking the Holy Scriptures out of the hands of the common people. The ones it was actually written for. " ?

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by 4ndr3w]
Click to expand...

Actually, the claim betrays a great deal of ignorance coupled with nonsense. For one thing, Augustine's dates are 354-430 AD. And the fact is that he encouraged the reading of the Scriptures by the laity...

Augustine (354-430): Consider, moreover, the style in which Sacred Scripture is composed,"”how accessible it is to all men, though its deeper mysteries are penetrable to very few. The plain truths which it contains it declares in the artless language of familiar friendship to the hearts both of the unlearned and of the learned; but even the truths which it veils in symbols it does not set forth in stiff and stately sentences, which a mind somewhat sluggish and uneducated might shrink from approaching, as a poor man shrinks from the presence of the rich; but, by the condescension of its style, it invites all not only to be fed with the truth which is plain, but also to be exercised by the truth which is concealed, having both in its simple and in its obscure portions the same truth. Lest what is easily understood should beget satiety in the reader, the same truth being in another place more obscurely expressed becomes again desired, and, being desired, is somehow invested with a new attractiveness, and thus is received with pleasure into the heart. By these means wayward minds are corrected, weak minds are nourished, and strong minds are filled with pleasure, in such a way as is profitable to all. This doctrine has no enemy but the man who, being in error, is ignorant of its incomparable usefulness, or, being spiritually diseased, is averse to its healing power. NPNF1: Vol. I, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 137, Chapter 5, §18. See also FC, Vol. 20, Saint Augustine Letters, 137. Addressed to Volusian (412 AD) (New York: Fathers of the Church, Inc., 1953), p. 34.

Augustine (354-430): For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,"”to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. NPNF1: Vol. II, On Christian Doctrine, Book II, Chapter 9.

Same Citation as above (Rotelle)

Augustine (354-430): The fact is, after all, that in the passages that are put plainly in scripture is to be found everything that touches upon faith, and good morals, that is to say hope, charity, which we dealt with in the previous book. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., Works of St. Augustine, Part 1, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., De Doctrina Christiana, Book II, Chapter 9, §14. (New York: New City Press, 1996), p. 135.

Augustine (354-430): Call this fancy, if it is not actually the case that men all over the world have been led, and are now led, to believe in Christ by reading these books. NPNF1: Vol. IV, Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XVI, §20.

Augustine (354-430): For in the full abundance of the Holy Scriptures we feed upon the plain parts, we are exercised by the obscure: by the one, hunger is driven away, and daintiness by the other. NPNF1: Vol. VI, Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, Sermon 21, §11.

Augustine (354-430): All things that are read from the Holy Scriptures in order to our instruction and salvation, it behooves us to hear with earnest heed. Yet most of all must those things be commended to our memory, which are of most force against heretics; whose insidious designs cease not to circumvent all that are weaker and more negligent. Remember that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ both died for us, and rose again; died, to wit, for our offenses, rose again for our justification. Even as ye have just heard concerning the two disciples whom He met with in the way, how "œtheir eyes were holden that they should not know Him:" and He found them despairing of the redemption that was in Christ, and deeming that now He had suffered and was dead as a man, not accounting that as Son of God He ever liveth; and deeming too that He was so dead in the flesh as not to come to life again, but just as one of the prophets: as those of you who were attentive have just now heard their own words. Then "œHe opened to them the Scriptures, beginning at Moses," and going through all the prophets, showing them that all He had suffered had been foretold, lest they should be more staggered if the Lord should rise again, and the more fail to believe Him, if these things had not been told before concerning Him. For the firmness of faith is in this, that all things which came to pass in Christ were foretold. The disciples, then, knew Him not, save "œin the breaking of bread." And truly he that eateth and drinketh not judgment to himself in the breaking of bread cloth know Christ. Afterward also those eleven "œthought they saw a spirit." He gave Himself to be handled by them, who also gave Himself to be crucified; to be crucified by enemies, to be handled by friends: yet the Physician of all, both of the ungodliness of those, and of the unbelief of these. For ye heard when the Acts of the Apostles were read, how many thousands of Christ´s slayers believed. If those believed afterwards who had killed, should not those believe who for a little while doubted? And yet even in regard of them, (a thing which ye ought especially to observe, and to commit to your memory, because that which shall make us strong against insidious errors, God has been pleased to put in the Scriptures, against which no man dares to speak, who in any sort wishes to seem a Christian), when He had given Himself to be handled by them, that did not suffice Him, but He would also confirm by means of the Scriptures the heart of them that believe: for He looked forward to us who should be afterwards; seeing that in Him we have nothing that we can handle, but have that which we may read. NPNF1: Vol. VII, Ten Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Homily 2, 1 John 2:12-17, §1.

Augustine (354-430): So "œHe gave them unto compassions, in the sight of all that had taken them captive" (ver. 46). That they might not be vessels of wrath, but vessels of mercy. The compassions unto which He gave them are named in the plural for this reason, I imagine, because each one hath a gift of his own from God, one in one way, another in another. Come then, whosoever readest this, and dost recognize the grace of God, by which we are redeemed unto eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ, by reading in the apostolical writings, and by searching in the Prophets, and seest the Old Testament revealed in the New, the New veiled in the Old; remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, where, when He driveth him out of the hearts of the faithful, He saith, "œNow is the prince of this world cast out:" and again of the Apostle, when he saith, "œWho hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son." Meditate on these and such like things, examine also the Old Testament, and see what is sung in that Psalm, the title of which is, When the temple was being built after the captivity: for there it is said, "œSing unto the Lord a new song." And, that thou mayest not think it doth refer to the Jewish people only, he saith, "œSing unto the Lord, all the whole earth: sing unto the Lord, and praise His Name: declare," or rather, "œgive the good news of," or, to transfer the very word used in the Greek, "œevangelize day from day, His salvation." Here the Gospel (Evangelium) is mentioned, in which is announced the Day that came from Day, our Lord Christ, the Light from Light, the Son from the Father. This also is the meaning of His salvation: for Christ is the Salvation of God, as we have shown above.... NPNF1: Vol. VIII, St. Augustin on the Psalms, Psalm 106, §32.

Augustine (354-430): From whom have you heard this? Where have you learned it? Where did you read it? Would you not do better to turn your mind to the Books of God? John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Arianism and Other Heresies, Answer to Maximinus the Arian, Book I:III, Part 1, Vol. 18, trans. Roland J. Teske, S.J. (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1995), p. 248.

Augustine (354-430): You exaggerate "œhow difficult the knowledge of the sacred scriptures is," claiming that "œit is suited for only the learned few, . . ." John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., The WSA, Answer to the Pelagians, II, Answer to Julian, Book V:2, Part 1, Vol. 24, trans. Roland J. Teske, S.J. (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1998), p. 432.

Augustine (354-430): This, after all, is the reason why a young man corrects his way of life: because he meditates upon the words of God as he ought to meditate upon them, observes them because he meditates upon them, and lives correctly because he observes them. This, then, is the reason for correcting his way of life: because he observes the words of God. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Answer to the Pelagians, II, Answer to Julian, Book VI:76, Part 1, Vol. 24, trans. Roland J. Teske, S.J. (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1998), p. 528.

Augustine (354-430): Our volumes are put up for sale in public; the light never needs to blush. Let them buy them, read them, believe them; or else buy them, read them, make fun of them. Those Scriptures know how to hold people guilty who read them and don´t believe. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Newly Discovered Sermons, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.20 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), pp. 195-196.

Augustine (354-430): Let those who have not yet believed observe, O my dear brothers and sisters, let them observe how many are the things that God has put into effect. Everything that we can see is being done in the name of Christ throughout the whole wide world was foreseen, foretold, written down beforehand. The volumes are in our hands, the facts before our eyes. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Newly Discovered Sermons, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 360B (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 379.

Blessings,
DTK
 
Question concerning Augustine: For those of you who have ever heard of Greg Boyd (an advocate for Open Theism), he is attempting to soon come out with a book that is going to deconstruct Augustine. His attempt is to go back to the "founder" of Reformed Faith and he believes if he can overthrow Augustine he can overthrow the Reformed Faith on providence and foreknowledge. He is allegedly saying that Augustine was too influenced by Plato and that too much of Greek philosophy creeped into his theology, and show that his theology was more centered around pagan philosophy than Scripture. Anyone know anything of this and the Augustine similarities to that of ancient Greek philosophy?
Grace Alone,
Michael
 
Originally posted by Coram_Deo
Question concerning Augustine: For those of you who have ever heard of Greg Boyd (an advocate for Open Theism), he is attempting to soon come out with a book that is going to deconstruct Augustine. His attempt is to go back to the "founder" of Reformed Faith and he believes if he can overthrow Augustine he can overthrow the Reformed Faith on providence and foreknowledge. He is allegedly saying that Augustine was too influenced by Plato and that too much of Greek philosophy creeped into his theology, and show that his theology was more centered around pagan philosophy than Scripture. Anyone know anything of this and the Augustine similarities to that of ancient Greek philosophy?
Grace Alone,
Michael
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Posted quite a while ago, but I thought comment was worthwhile at least. My recomendation regarding this is for someone to read a healthy dose of Origen who was indisputably influenced by Plato. Plato was influential in the east and Eastern Orthodoxy fought it's influence for a long, long time. Then read Augustine's more famous works and his sermons. Seriously, that will be the death sentence for such foolishness.

Augustine was wrong about things to be sure, but Augustine's heart and soul was bdriven by the need to be true to the scriptures and his Lord Jesus Christ. He was certainly familiar with worldly philosophies, but his theological works are most assuredly sincere efforts at applying sola scriptura to his theology. He also was before the times when Aristotle's became practically the second canon by the scholastics and their ilk so he wasn't tremendously influenced by that in my opinion either.
 
If Augustine Were Alive

Would he find himself playing both sides(Catholic and Protestant) against the middle,and feeling very used?
 
Neither Augustin the historical person, nor anyone else, can be extracted from his place in history and plopped into another time and asked to choose sides. The best we can do is try to enter his history and understand him. We bring his ideas out into the light and measure them against the Word, that he believed in and we, and that doesn't change. He said a lot of things that commend themselves (and him) to us. He predates both the Reformation and the Medieval papacy, so its in no way surprising that both major strands of the Western church should look to him. Rome once even embraced his theology as cardinal. Later it rejected the same in faor of semi-Pelagianism. The Reformers' decendents still hold to the Augustinian view of regeneration. Who gets to claim him?

Rome wishes Augustin was a supporter of the papacy, and they try to find such support in his writings. But such is hard to come by, and is subject to varied interpretation, as well as some things he said which are utterly incompatible with either the Medieval or Modern Roman views of church authority. So, who gets to claim him?

Augustin felt that the state should suppress schismatic Christians (Donatists) with fire, sword, and imprisonment. Anyone want to claim him?

Better to say, he belongs to none but Christ and the history of his church. Augustinianism is still present today in various forms, depends on how it is defined. Some are closer to him in one place or another. Some are closer to him on central matters than others. He was an important figure who stood up to defend the faith at a critical time in history. Praise God for him.
 
One of the life changing moments I had was during the time I studied Augustine's life. While his weaknesses are different then mine, the verse that changes his life also changed mine. Romans 13:14. Its part of dying to our own wants and desires and living passionately for Gods alone.
:pilgrim:
 
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