AWANA
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heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
No, not directed at you. Just venting in general. I will stop now.
Scott Shahan
Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by jaybird0827
If you have about 20 minutes, I think it might help to listen to this. One of the most important points my pastor makes in this brief address is getting the people in the local church on the same spiritual diet.
I think you would do far better to catechise your children to reinforce what you're being taught within the context of the local church, assuming that your local church is sound. That would prove more productive than risking other sources undermining what you purpose to teach your children and then having to undo the damage.
I have heard some horror stories about Arminian teaching to the core at AWANA.
If AWANA has it's roots in Arminianism They are teaching a false gospel. Where did this AWANA program come from? Who founded it?
heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awana
Honestly, it's really just gametime for the kids and then we recite verses. Then there is a "counsel" time where a leader talks to the kids about some particular subject, but as far as I know they don't use anything official for this time.
[Edited on 9-26-2006 by Rick Larson]
Scott Shahan
Puritan Board Sophomore
Rick,
I am leaving my son in the program. He likes it and I do not think that he is being harmed by it. We have gone to this church for years now and I think I have a good understanding of what is going on in this church. This is the first time that I have ever heard something negative about the AWANA program. I have emailed my pastor concerning this. So that he can read this thread for himself.
Scott
I am leaving my son in the program. He likes it and I do not think that he is being harmed by it. We have gone to this church for years now and I think I have a good understanding of what is going on in this church. This is the first time that I have ever heard something negative about the AWANA program. I have emailed my pastor concerning this. So that he can read this thread for himself.
Scott
rjlynam
Puritan Board Sophomore
Just for the "what it's worth" value, I consider myself a reformed thinker, but I think it behooves everyone to remember Colossians 4:6 when posting:
Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
This is not a rebuttal to your comment, Steven, just using it as an example of how people shouldn't end up feeling.
[Edited on 9-27-2006 by rjlynam]
Scott Shahan
Puritan Board Sophomore
This is great insight, Adam, it is a bit bizarre! Memorizing God's Word trumps man made catechisms. When it comes to push and shove memorizing God's Word is more of a priority to know, then memorizing the Westminister Catechism. sola scripture!
I am not anti catechism, but putting that above memorization of the Holy Scriptures isn't right.
AWANA is about Scripture memorization and that Glorifies the Lord Jesus.
Scott
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't know about anyone else but in my family when we "catechise" we memorize scripture.
This is not an either/or situation.
My primary problem with the AWANA type scripture memorization is that it can tend toward "proof-texting". This is not a specific complaint about AWANA all arminianism has this problem In my humble opinion.
If your kids like the club aspect try boy scouts/girl guides and the WSC with scripture.
This is not an either/or situation.
My primary problem with the AWANA type scripture memorization is that it can tend toward "proof-texting". This is not a specific complaint about AWANA all arminianism has this problem In my humble opinion.
If your kids like the club aspect try boy scouts/girl guides and the WSC with scripture.
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
The part I bolded above is what primarily concerns me. I don´t think anyone has problems with memorizing scripture (Reformed theology is all about knowing God´s word inside and out). Formal catechizing helps ensure children are taught scripture correctly. AWANA certainly includes catechizing. The problem is, the answers do not come from approved sources, but individualistic opinions of possible strangers who do not attend a confessional church for one reason or another (ignorance or disagreement). These are the people who will be answering your child´s questions (my children ask a lot of questions).
Sure there are churches that may use AWANA and teach appropriately, but the program is designed by non-confessional churches and primarily supported by non-confessional churches. Kids do not just take home memorized scripture verses when leaving every week. What stays with them is what they see and hear from the members of this non-confessional church. Unless I intimately know the teachers, it would be difficult to entrust my children into the care of such "œteachers" who have all their catechism answers in their heads and see it best to avoid confessional churches (again for whatever reason).
Kids can interact and play at the park or at story time at the library, etc. The right and consistent teaching of all that Jesus commanded is what is vital.
Also do not forget catechizing includes memorizing scripture and its right application.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Uh, the Catechizing INCLUDES Scripture Memorization.
Kids' Quest does.
Catechism in the RPCNA did (Goodness the ppl there have the Q&A and the scriptures that went with each all memorized!).
The problem is NOT catechism vs scripture memorization.
The problem is the set up of AWANAS and how it is handled.
[Edited on 9-27-2006 by LadyFlynt]
Kids' Quest does.
Catechism in the RPCNA did (Goodness the ppl there have the Q&A and the scriptures that went with each all memorized!).
The problem is NOT catechism vs scripture memorization.
The problem is the set up of AWANAS and how it is handled.
[Edited on 9-27-2006 by LadyFlynt]
jaybird0827
PuritanBoard Honor Roll
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
Chris
Maybe I need to understand exactly what you mean concerning my statement that read, "œI can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths." Why does that concern you? Does it concern you that even though I fully believe in all aspects of Reformed Theology yet belong to the SBC and work in AWANAs that I might be teaching them error? I am sure formal catechizing is a wonderful tool and I would no doubt agree that it could and would benefit our children, but those programs and tools are NOT available to us. This is NOT about your children, this is about children who are not privy to such programs, most of who"”as I have already stated"”are dropped off by their parents. Most of these parents are not even concerned with their children´s spiritual welfare, but we are. I think you need perspective on a world that is not as perfect as yours!
So, does this mean that God is not at work in our church and cannot work through simple stories? Did Christ not teach in parables? What is your point? You have a wonderful picture of your family nicely dressed in white. They are absolutely gorgeous. You belong to a wonderful church no doubt with all the best teaching tools and catechisms. I am sure you are a wonderful father who cares and prays diligently for your family. Do your prayers, your approved sources and your doctrinally correct church insure that a Sovereign God will honor your prayers that each of your children will know Him intimately as you pray and hope? Absolutely not! As your children grow and your parental control lessens, there will be times that you can do nothing else but to entrust them to a merciful heavenly father. Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you write as though you are more in control that than you really are. Story time at the park or at the library? If these children are being dropped off at church, I seriously doubt that their parents are overly concerned with making sure that their kids have interaction time at parks and libraries, have the right and consistent teaching of all that Jesus commanded them at home.
Maybe I need to understand exactly what you mean concerning my statement that read, "œI can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths." Why does that concern you? Does it concern you that even though I fully believe in all aspects of Reformed Theology yet belong to the SBC and work in AWANAs that I might be teaching them error? I am sure formal catechizing is a wonderful tool and I would no doubt agree that it could and would benefit our children, but those programs and tools are NOT available to us. This is NOT about your children, this is about children who are not privy to such programs, most of who"”as I have already stated"”are dropped off by their parents. Most of these parents are not even concerned with their children´s spiritual welfare, but we are. I think you need perspective on a world that is not as perfect as yours!
So, does this mean that God is not at work in our church and cannot work through simple stories? Did Christ not teach in parables? What is your point? You have a wonderful picture of your family nicely dressed in white. They are absolutely gorgeous. You belong to a wonderful church no doubt with all the best teaching tools and catechisms. I am sure you are a wonderful father who cares and prays diligently for your family. Do your prayers, your approved sources and your doctrinally correct church insure that a Sovereign God will honor your prayers that each of your children will know Him intimately as you pray and hope? Absolutely not! As your children grow and your parental control lessens, there will be times that you can do nothing else but to entrust them to a merciful heavenly father. Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you write as though you are more in control that than you really are. Story time at the park or at the library? If these children are being dropped off at church, I seriously doubt that their parents are overly concerned with making sure that their kids have interaction time at parks and libraries, have the right and consistent teaching of all that Jesus commanded them at home.
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
Yes you need to understand exactly what I mean.
Nothing about you personally concerns me. Easy on the sarcasm. Ask for clarification before assuming my motives and attitude. My comment was much more general than the way you think.
You made the point that you, as an AWANA leader do not rely only on helping the kids memorize scripture, but you also add personal insight and application. Considering who the potential leaders can be (ie: those who are either anti-reformed confessions or ignorant of reformed confessions, either way unqualified to teach my children) and the simple fact that AWANA leaders are adding personal and authoritative insight "“ not directed at you personally, is why there is a concern. There is nothing wrong with teacher or leader application, all learning settings do this, but the question is the source of the authoritative applications and personal insights. To the kids, the leaders are the authority. They are the respected teachers with the answers.
Kids do not simply get dropped off and memorize scripture and go home "“ you proved this. In reality, as is expected, they are exposed to not just the scripture verses but also teacher insight and application (a form of catechism but without the unity, clarity and often orthodoxy). These churches and teachers are not reformed for a reason. I believe mostly due to ignorance which in that case, why would I allow the ignorant to answer my children´s questions? If it is due to intended disagreement, then why would I allow my children to be taught by those who are in staunch defiance against what I believe to be an orthodox hermeneutic?
If you are a confessional brother in a confessional church teaching AWANA in a confessional manner, then you are an exception to the norm and God bless you.
Now you may want to re-read my original response in order to understand my point.
rjlynam
Puritan Board Sophomore
Be encouraged, Chris. You certainly seem like a father who truly understands that you are responsible and accountable to God for the upbringing of your children. We in the reformed faith, especially those who homeschool, are often accused of "sheltering our children from the real world". We know that this "IS" the real world, as God desires for our children to experience. And don't think for a minute that your parental control will or should lessen when your children get older. Rather, when they're 12-13 and trained as an adult, look at your child and say "Now, until you are old enough to be on your own (18-19), take my hand, and let me show you the practical applications of everything you've learned heretofore."
We have the great promise from God in Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. "
[Edited on 9-27-2006 by rjlynam]
We have the great promise from God in Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. "
[Edited on 9-27-2006 by rjlynam]
turmeric
Megerator
AWANA may be the closest thing to catechesis that kids in a non-confessional church get, and it is the only catechesis some kids get. They teach that we are sinners, that we cannot do anything good to make God be alright with our sin, that only Christ's atonement can save us and the instrument is faith...yeah, they give it the Evanjellyfish spin, but it's not too bad, really. Should a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist send his/her kids to AWANA if there's something better? Obviously not. But God can make a straight line with a crooked stick, and I've seen sticks a lot crooked-er than AWANA.
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
It is thoroughly southern baptistic, produced by Lifeway. If you are baptist of reformed kind, like we were, you have to gut the program to the point that its pointless to use other than as a launching platform or skeleton for something much better.
"VERY shallow way of sharing the gospel" is being quite kind. It never actually GIVES the Gospel it gets the work of "praying the sinners prayer" and "doing" into action. It never actually gives the Gospel, that's a misnomer but rather obscures its light by "doing" something, just like alter calls.
It does make wonderful training for training up children to attend to the manmade sacraments of the s. baptist church; aisle walking, rededication, rebaptism, promise keeper meetings, ad nausem.
A reformed baptist friend/brother of mine found himself in the situation of having to do it. He took the opportunity to teach the Solas and the Gospel, which the kids where getting, the devil didn't care for that and he caught trouble for it from the Awanna cult within his church at the time (which was SB).
My friend was constantly re-teaching his own 8 year old son to correct against it.
I'd stick to the confessions, kids understand a lot more than most give them credit. Patience, a rare fruit of the Spirit in the giddy spirited church today is helpful.
L
"VERY shallow way of sharing the gospel" is being quite kind. It never actually GIVES the Gospel it gets the work of "praying the sinners prayer" and "doing" into action. It never actually gives the Gospel, that's a misnomer but rather obscures its light by "doing" something, just like alter calls.
It does make wonderful training for training up children to attend to the manmade sacraments of the s. baptist church; aisle walking, rededication, rebaptism, promise keeper meetings, ad nausem.
A reformed baptist friend/brother of mine found himself in the situation of having to do it. He took the opportunity to teach the Solas and the Gospel, which the kids where getting, the devil didn't care for that and he caught trouble for it from the Awanna cult within his church at the time (which was SB).
My friend was constantly re-teaching his own 8 year old son to correct against it.
I'd stick to the confessions, kids understand a lot more than most give them credit. Patience, a rare fruit of the Spirit in the giddy spirited church today is helpful.
L
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
My mistake Ivan, I stand corrected. It began back in the 50s I think as a youth program. It's a Lifeway resource not produced by them. Sorry about that confusion, thanks for the clarification.
One other clarification ALL that I wrote was the opinion of reformed baptist directly whom I know and not other reformed folks. They actually have much more beef with it, though I don't disagree with them.
Blessings,
L
One other clarification ALL that I wrote was the opinion of reformed baptist directly whom I know and not other reformed folks. They actually have much more beef with it, though I don't disagree with them.
Blessings,
L
Ivan
Pastor
Two more clarifications:
1) If you go to the Lifeway website, you will find no material on AWANA. BTW, I do not use Lifeway for any purpose. I know I may be in the minority among Southern Baptists on that count.
2) I am not speaking for or against AWANA. I have no experience with the program and I don't know any Southern Baptist churches that uses it. I'm not saying Southern Baptist churches don't use it. I'm saying the Southern Baptist churches that I have personal experience with do not use the program.
[Edited on by Ivan]
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
Ivan,
You are correct. I was always told they were Lifeway and assumed the information correct. I stand corrected again, thanks!
Numerous SB churches I know down here use it without any changes. In fact all that I know do.
At my former Calvinistic SB church they basically took the format that drew children in, which was great. Then applied some of Piper's stuff and the LBCF as the content. So was it really Awana? Yes and no.
That's how we applied it there.
Blessings,
Larry
You are correct. I was always told they were Lifeway and assumed the information correct. I stand corrected again, thanks!
Numerous SB churches I know down here use it without any changes. In fact all that I know do.
At my former Calvinistic SB church they basically took the format that drew children in, which was great. Then applied some of Piper's stuff and the LBCF as the content. So was it really Awana? Yes and no.
That's how we applied it there.
Blessings,
Larry
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
Steven,
A no? It's a fact of history for my friend/pastor you have no personally knowledge of that I do. It cannot be a "no". That's ridiculous.
The sola's my friend was teaching all but got him thrown out of his church driven by directly, not indirectly, but directly by the Awana's within his church! It really happened.
The biggest beef he had with it was it set up the SB false means of grace train of rededications, rebaptism, etc... his direct assessment.
In fact at length when the head pastor of that church sought to supplant Awana's with Piper's material, they openly rejected it which eventually in no small part led to his leaving due to the friction.
If you want to use, use it. I'm certainly not holding you back.
A no? It's a fact of history for my friend/pastor you have no personally knowledge of that I do. It cannot be a "no". That's ridiculous.
The sola's my friend was teaching all but got him thrown out of his church driven by directly, not indirectly, but directly by the Awana's within his church! It really happened.
The biggest beef he had with it was it set up the SB false means of grace train of rededications, rebaptism, etc... his direct assessment.
In fact at length when the head pastor of that church sought to supplant Awana's with Piper's material, they openly rejected it which eventually in no small part led to his leaving due to the friction.
If you want to use, use it. I'm certainly not holding you back.
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