Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[Jared]

This may have been posted here before, but if my understanding of church history is correct, some of the Puritans believed that the baptism in the Holy Spirit was subsequent to salvation just as many Pentecostals and Charismatics do today although they were cessationists.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones was both a continuationist and he believed in a second blessing. Can you be confessional and believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit as an event subsequent to salvation? I don't believe that way, I was just wondering.

Could Martyn Lloyd-Jones have been a member of the PB? I've noticed that a lot of people around here like him.

 

[alhembd]

This is not quite correct. Some Puritans - Thomas Goodwin in particular - believed in a "sealing of the Spirit" that resulted in the full assurance of faith. However, Goodwin did not equate this "sealing" with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Few Puritans other than Goodwin, however, subscribed to this doctrine. Richard Sibbes believed in "sealings" of the Spirit - namely, that the sealing witness to the conscience of the believer is a progressive work in this life. Goodwin himself believed in a crisis later sealing witness, I believe, because he had some kind of strong experience that involved an immediate witness of the Spirit as to his own salvation, and he equated it with the seal of the Spirit spoken of in Ephesians 1.13. As I say, however, Goodwin was virtually alone in this view.

Now: Martin Lloyd Jones took Goodwin's singular view, and then, called that the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then added to it the possibility that some could even received apostolic sign gifts along with this baptism. This opened a real can of worms.

Today, Lloyd Jones' Westminster Chapel is a charismatic nightmare, if I am not mistaken. They have even had the "Toronto blessing" there with "holy laughter," and all that hysterical nonsense. To my mind, Lloyd Jones' straying from historic Reformed thinking in this is proof of itself why independency will not work. Ministers need the oversight of Presbyteries and Synods to keep them in line. Synods are indeed Scriptural, and their decisions, so long as Scriptural, are indeed binding; and those who defy them other than on the grounds of open departure from the Scripture, despise an ordinance of God.

---------- Post added at 03:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

Jared,

The following is a quote from the Wikipedia website, and its biographical entry on Martin Lloyd Jones. Sad to say, in his later days, Martin Lloyd Jones went charismatic, and even opposed cessationism.

From Wikipedia.com:

Charismatic Movement
Martyn Lloyd-Jones has admirers from many different denominations in the Christian Church today. One much-discussed aspect of his legacy is his relationship to the Charismatic Movement. Respected by leaders of many churches associated with this movement, although not directly associated with them, he did teach the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a distinct experience rather than conversion and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.[5] Indeed, towards the end of his life he urged his listeners to actively seek an experience of the Holy Spirit. For instance, in his exposition of Ephesians 6:10-13, published in 1976, he says, "Do you know anything of this fire? If you do not, confess it to God and acknowledge it. Repent, and ask Him to send the Spirit and His love into you until you are melted and moved, until you are filled with his love divine, and know His love to you, and rejoice in it as his child, and look forward to the hope of the coming glory. 'Quench not the Spirit', but rather 'be filled with the Spirit' and 'rejoice in Christ Jesus'".[6]
Part of Lloyd-Jones' stress of the Christian's need of the baptism with the Holy Spirit was due to his belief that this provides an overwhelming assurance of God's love to the Christian, and thereby enables him to boldly witness for Christ to an unbelieving world.[5]
Aside from his insistence that the baptism with the Spirit is a work of Jesus Christ distinct from regeneration, rather than the filling of the Holy Spirit, Lloyd-Jones also opposed cessationism, claiming that the doctrine is not founded upon Scripture. In fact, he requested that Banner of Truth Trust, the publishing company which he co-founded, only publish his works on the subject after his death.[5] He claimed that those who took a position such as B.B. Warfield's on cessationism were 'quenching the Spirit.'[5] He continued to proclaim the necessity of the active working of God in the world and the need for him to miraculously demonstrate his power so that Christian preachers (and all those who witness for Christ) might gain a hearing in a contemporary world that is hostile to the true God and to Christianity in general.[4]

 

[bug]

Whilst westminster chapel has certainly gone off the rails that is due more to R T Kendall then DMLJ. In the later years the ministry of Lloyd Jones seemed to have some sympathies for some of the charismatic teachings however he was far from endorsing the charismatic movement which was unkown in the UK throughout most of ministry.

In relation to the departure of the chapel from it's more reformed background, that came long after DMLJ. We must look to the mid 80s to see what happened. On June 25, 1984, two deacons wrote to Dr Kendall. One was John Raynar, who as a senior deacon had been Chairman of the Pastorate Committee at the time of Kendall’s appointment, and the other was T. W. Weddell. They wrote:

For some time we have been increasingly concerned about the state of affairs in the Chapel and would like to share our thoughts with you. There have been considerable changes since you began your Ministry, especially during the last two years. Many Members are seriously concerned about several matters. This tends towards disunity, confusion and a lack of trust and of profitable fellowship. The causes may be various but we believe them to be mainly the changes which have been introduced into the Services and the preaching, in particular your present teaching on such fundamental matters as the Christian Walk, Sanctification, the atonement and Heaven. When we called you to be our Pastor seven years ago (a Call which was supported by a very large majority of Members), it was naturally assumed that in accepting the Call, you were fully in sympathy with all that the Chapel had stood for. Had you then made clear your position and views on the matters which are the cause of the present difficulties there is no doubt that, whilst respecting them, we would not have extended the Call to you . . . After careful and prayerful consideration of our duty in these matters, we have concluded that we should share our thoughts and anxieties with you. It may be that during the Summer holidays you will consider afresh your position . . . This letter is written in a true desire to further the best interests of yourself as well as Westminster Chapel, and not in any spirit of ill will or antagonism.

Matters came to a head in 1985 when six church officers (Richard Alderson, Peter Collins, George Miller, John P. Raynar, John Sloan and T. W. Weddell.)
where expelled for trying to keep the chapel on a doctrinal basis. One church members records it like this;

‘There ended an unhappy evening in the which six long-serving, faithful, godly-living men, having a good report in the Church and also in the world, were put out of office because they had endeavoured to ascertain that the Word of God was preached in purity and because their minister placed himself above criticism.'

The direction the Chapel was going in was not the fault of the Doctor, or the church membership when he was the minister, that had largely changed by this time. The congregation was approxiamtely thousand during bhis pastorate, however at least half who were only temporarily living in London. The congregation in 1985 was no more than 300 on Sunday mornings and about 100 in the evenings. Only a few faithful to the teaching of DMLJ remained.

There are many Charismatics who like to think DMLJ was charismatic, they should read Murray's biography of the good doctor.

Exerts taken from "'Openness to the Holy Spirit': How Westminster Chapel Was Turned Around." by Iain H. Murray (The Banner of Truth Magazine Issue 486, March 2004, pp.25-32).

 

[Jared]

I'll be honest here, coming from a Charismatic background RT Kendall is one of the first reformed preachers that I heard. I have disagreements with RT Kendall and Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones however. I have heard that RT Kendall is antinomian. I read a quote that seemed to suggest this on John MacArthur's website. I lost respect for him after I read that. I don't have any patience with antinomianism.

The main two areas where I disagree with Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones are his belief in a second blessing, and his opposition to the Billy Graham crusade in London.

I understand his disagreements with Billy Graham, but I don't think the reasons that he gave for opposing the crusade are enough to oppose the preaching of the gospel. I realize that some here may disagree with me on that, but I think that we should try to promote unity as much as possible.

I also disagree however with RT Kendall having Billy Graham come and preach at his church. I don't think I would have done that either. I guess it's hard to say though since I wasn't there and I don't know how a reformed evangelical would have viewed Graham's ministry at the time.

 

[alhembd]

Whilst westminster chapel has certainly gone off the rails that is due more to R T Kendall then DMLJ. In the later years the ministry of Lloyd Jones seemed to have some sympathies for some of the charismatic teachings however he was far from endorsing the charismatic movement which was unkown in the UK throughout most of ministry.

Jonathan,

Unquestionably, however, Dr Jones' endorsement of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" doctrine, with the idea that cessationism is wrong, opened the door wide for R T Kendall's teachings in the Westminster Chapel.

There is a more fundamental issue, too. Dr Jones was wrong.

 

[Peairtach]

The sealing of the Holy Spirit happens at regeneration when we are baptised by/with the Holy Spirit by Christ into Himself.

This is why Pentecost had to be delayed until Christ was at the right hand of the Father. Christ couldn't baptise His disciples by/with the Holy Spirit into Himself until He was in Heaven. See the latter chapters of John.

Charismatics/Pentes wilfully neglect the fact that we are baptised by/with (the word "in" isn't used) the Holy Spirit into Christ.

We may not be as subjectively aware of the sealing of the Spirit when it happens as we are later on in our Christian experience i.e. we may lack assurance early on. This may be one reason why Goodwin believed the sealing was subsequent to conversion. We may have experiences of the work of God in our hearts and lives, subsequent to conversion, that are subjectively more powerful and wonderful than conversion itself.

So we have to be careful with our labels to avoid Pentecostalist confusion.