Baptism of the Holy Spirit - A separate event?

Discussion in 'Pneumatology' started by BC, Feb 24, 2004.

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  1. BC

    BC Inactive User

    Hi all,

    Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit an event distinct from when He first gifts us with faith in the living God?

    All responses appreciated,
    Bibin
     
  2. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    [quote:603a99469d][i:603a99469d]Originally posted by Bibin[/i:603a99469d]
    Hi all,

    Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit an event distinct from when He first gifts us with faith in the living God?

    All responses appreciated,
    Bibin [/quote:603a99469d]

    NO. One of the best treatments of this issue is in Donald Macleod's [i:603a99469d]The Spirit of Promise[/i:603a99469d].

    To make the baptism of the Spirit a second work causes severe problems.

    [Edited on 2-24-2004 by fredtgreco]
     
  3. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Fred, Did you answer correctly. It looks like you are saying, "Yes, it is a separate event, and then "seeing it as a second work is problematic (i.e a separate event)."

    My wife is reading, "The Holy Spirit" by F.D. Bruner which is one of the best explanations of both Pentecostalism and Holiness ideas as well as a refutaion of them. That is a VERY good book to read on this issue at large.
     
  4. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    [quote:e221f76a7e][i:e221f76a7e]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:e221f76a7e]
    Fred, Did you answer correctly. It looks like you are saying, "Yes, it is a separate event, and then "seeing it as a second work is problematic (i.e a separate event)."

    My wife is reading, "The Holy Spirit" by F.D. Bruner which is one of the best explanations of both Pentecostalism and Holiness ideas as well as a refutaion of them. That is a VERY good book to read on this issue at large. [/quote:e221f76a7e]

    YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::shocked::shocked:

    That is what happens when you try and answer a few posts too quickly. The answer is definitely NO. The baptism of the Holy Spirit always occurs at justification. I'll edit the post.
     
  5. Canadian Baptist

    Canadian Baptist Puritan Board Freshman

    Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay.
    :D:D:D
     
  6. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Thanks for your Edit Fred.
    I thought you had gone over to ....... the OTHER side.....

    Luke [low muffled voice]....come over to the Dark Side of the force...........:lol:
     
  7. exscentric

    exscentric Puritan Board Freshman

    :eek::eek:

    I came in late and saw the no answer (from the edit) and everyone was asking why he said yes and I was thinking this place wasn't the place for me :lol: These people can't even read a two letter word without making it a three letter word :)
     
  8. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    in ordo salutis, doesn't the baptism logically come after faith? Since the Spirit would not fill an unclean vessel that has not yet been imputed Christ's righteousness.

    I know it all happens at the same time, but just for the sake of logical order... it would be wrong to say for instance that regeneration is the same thing (or logically comes at the same time/order)as the baptism... right?

    Rembrandt

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by rembrandt]

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by rembrandt]
     
  9. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    Rembrandt writes in regards to the O.S.:
    "I know it all happens at the same time,"

    Rem,
    How do you know this? Is it not possible for infants to be regenerated at birth and not be converted till years later after hearing the word preached?
     
  10. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:7c3aa93f86][i:7c3aa93f86]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:7c3aa93f86]
    Rembrandt writes in regards to the O.S.:
    "I know it all happens at the same time,"

    Rem,
    How do you know this? Is it not possible for infants to be regenerated at birth and not be converted till years later after hearing the word preached? [/quote:7c3aa93f86]

    I'm not going to answer because I assume you are joking.
     
  11. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    rem,
    I am not joking..........How do you know that the O.S. happens simultaneously?

    What occured when John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Spirit" at birth?
     
  12. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:e3f13b88be][i:e3f13b88be]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:e3f13b88be]
    in ordo salutis, doesn't the baptism logically come after faith? Since the Spirit would not fill an unclean vessel that has not yet been imputed Christ's righteousness.

    I know it all happens at the same time, but just for the sake of logical order... it would be wrong to say for instance that regeneration is the same thing (or logically comes at the same time/order)as the baptism... right?

    Rembrandt

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by rembrandt]

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by rembrandt] [/quote:e3f13b88be]

    I am not quite following you. There is no "Baptism of the Spirit". Unless you are a charismatic.
     
  13. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:e2d83dd479]I am not quite following you. There is no "Baptism of the Spirit". Unless you are a charismatic.[/quote:e2d83dd479]

    [quote:e2d83dd479]rem,
    I am not joking..........How do you know that the O.S. happens simultaneously?

    What occured when John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Spirit" at birth?[/quote:e2d83dd479]

    :shocked2: perhaps I am loosing it!?!?! Unless ya'll are playing a trick on me.

    From a regenerated heart, what necessarily follows is saving faith. There is no time gap in between- unless it is like a split second.

    As for Spirit baptism, it is the same thing as the one time filling of the Holy Spirit at salvation. Matt. 3:11, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, 1 Cor. 12:13 etc.
     
  14. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Here's my :wr50:. I definitely think the Bible shows that regeneration can take place long before saving faith. I believe this because of examples such as John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. While it is true that God often does regenerate people right before they believe, He does not always do such. In many cases the period between regeneration and saving faith may be shorter than in John the Baptist's case--for instance, God may regenerate someone just before the beginning of a Gospel sermon, and they exercise saving faith at the end of the sermon.

    The instant someone exercises faith, justification and the indwelling (or filling) of the Holy Spirit occur simultaneously, although in that respective logical order, since as you pointed out, the Holy Spirit cannot live inside that which is unclean.

    How I think this relates to the original question of the thread is that since one is indwelt by the Spirit immediately at the exercise of justifying faith, his body [i:01065cc12a]really is[/i:01065cc12a] the temple of the Holy Spirit, and he has a renewed nature, and thus there is no logical place for a "deeper" filling by the same Spirit, which would imply that the indwelling at salvation that was purchased at the Cross is insufficient to sustain the Christian life. Sure, there is a continual sanctification process occuring, but that is an [i:01065cc12a]inevitable result[/i:01065cc12a] of the initial indwelling, and is definitely secured for us at Calvary--which is much different from saying that there is a "second blessing" of the Spirit that some believers receive and some do not.

    Hope this helps :wink:.

    Chris
     
  15. pastorway

    pastorway Puritan Board Senior

    For the discusison on Spirit Baptism, see this earlier thread:
    http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=933

    And I think Cornelius proves regeneration before faith with a time gap between the two.

    A natural (lost) man does not fear God nor seek for Him (1 Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7), and Cornelius feared God and was seeking Him when God sent Peter to preach to him and his family in Acts 10.

    Cornelius feared God and sought after Him before Peter ever came and preached - Acts 10:2-4.

    Corenlius was "saved" (coverted, justified) when he heard the Word and had faith - Acts 10:44.

    Phillip
     
  16. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    :shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2::shocked::shocked2:

    Okay, so you were being serious!!

    I have never heard this before. I gotta look into it- like right now...

    thinking... thinking some more...
    Rembrandt
     
  17. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    ...still thinking...

    [quote:68f8b8440b]A natural (lost) man does not fear God nor seek for Him (1 Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7), and Cornelius feared God and was seeking Him when God sent Peter to preach to him and his family in Acts 10.

    Cornelius feared God and sought after Him before Peter ever came and preached - Acts 10:2-4.[/quote:68f8b8440b]

    If I am not mistaken, there is a couple places in the Bible (OT) where heathen folks are said to have feared God (I'm not referring to those verses in the NT where pre-Christian Jews were called God fearers). Of course it is not speaking of the true fear of God.

    Also, everyone can be said to seek after God- they just never find him. No I am not denying the "no one seeks God." I'm talking about when people are longing for things, what they are really longing for is God- they just don't know it. (Please don't take this out of the context that I am using it in.) If someone goes to a Mormon church because they say they are "trying to find God," they probably are searching for some kind of spiritual meaning and ultimately God. (however 99.9% of people in a Mormon church or whatever it is are not seeking God, but only themselves- but just for the sake of demonstration.)

    I know that is a flimsy arguement and makes the Scriptures appear ambigous, but it could make sense... thinking... still thinking...

    rembrandt
     
  18. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    An excellent read on the subject:

    "A Treatise on Regeneration"
    by Peter Van Mastricht
     
  19. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    [quote:47a3ca0821][i:47a3ca0821]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:47a3ca0821]
    in ordo salutis, doesn't the baptism logically come after faith? Since the Spirit would not fill an unclean vessel that has not yet been imputed Christ's righteousness.

    I know it all happens at the same time, but just for the sake of logical order... it would be wrong to say for instance that regeneration is the same thing (or logically comes at the same time/order)as the baptism... right?

    Rembrandt

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by rembrandt]

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by rembrandt] [/quote:47a3ca0821]

    Rembrandt,

    The baptism of the Spirit, which you correctly identify as the one-time filling with the Holy Spirit, occurs upon justification. Justification, can however, occur not only after regeneration logically, but also temporally. The baptism of the Spirit does occur logically after justification, but not temporally.
     
  20. exscentric

    exscentric Puritan Board Freshman

    Anyone:

    Those that view regeneration as an integrated part of salvation - at the same time - view Rom. 1:18-20 as showing everyone has some consciousness of God given to them, so will not be without excuse at the judgment.

    If they can't respond to God, why is this knowledge built in - it is useless if they can't respond to it - thus you must have a different interpretation of the Rom. passage - would be interested to read it.

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by exscentric]
     
  21. JohnV

    JohnV Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Exscentric:
    [quote:37db66c660]Those that view regeneration as an integrated part of salvation - at the same time - view Rom. 1:18-20 as showing everyone has some consciousness of God given to them, so will not be without excuse at the judgment.

    If they can't respond to God, why is this knowledge built in - it is useless if they can't respond to it - thus you must have a different interpretation of the Rom. passage - would be interested to read it.
    [/quote:37db66c660]A very good question, and one there is an answer for. This topic deserves its own thread.

    As I understand it, the knowledge of God is not useless. People can jade their conscience, but they cannot destroy it. That sense of morality and justice, even of truth itself, is knowledge of God's character that cannot be erased. It can be subverted or suppressed, but not erased, and is an ever-present reminder to all that there is a God. The guilt before God is self-inflicted, because the conscience either accuses or excuses, but is not ever non-committal.:wr50:
     
  22. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    [quote:949e666775][i:949e666775]Originally posted by exscentric[/i:949e666775]
    Anyone:

    Those that view regeneration as an integrated part of salvation - at the same time - view Rom. 1:18-20 as showing everyone has some consciousness of God given to them, so will not be without excuse at the judgment.

    If they can't respond to God, why is this knowledge built in - it is useless if they can't respond to it - thus you must have a different interpretation of the Rom. passage - would be interested to read it.

    [Edited on 2-25-2004 by exscentric] [/quote:949e666775]

    Excentric,

    The argument from Romans 1 is that the general revelation leaves man without excuse, but it is itself insufficient to point men to a redeemer (WCF 1, Belgic 2, 14). The knowledge of the redeemer (following Calvin here) is found only in the Scriptures. The problem is that man in his sin is unable to understand or discern the Scriptures (1 Cor 2) without the aid of the Holy Spirit regenerating him. But that does not leave man with an excuse. The command does not imply an ability - see Luther's excellent work on this, [i:949e666775]The Bondage of the Will[/i:949e666775]. The very knowledge from creation is there to leave him without excuse.
     
  23. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    Okay, now I'm confused. Obviously we are not talking about "Baptism of the Spirit" as the Charismatics do. So I assume that we are talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the time a person first believes.

    The activity of the Holy Spirit first occurs at the Effectual Calling. Justification must folllow regeneration as the fruits of regeneration are faith and repentance. It is that justifying faith that lays hold of Christ and His rightousness that is imputed to the believer. Of course this is all accomplished in a monergistic manner by GOD.

    The idea that Cornelius was regenerated then later produced faith does not necessarily follow. Cornelius was a God fearer and as such new the promises of the covenant and just like OT saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. When Peter met him and preached the Gospel to him, this can certainly be viewed as the actualization of what Cornelius was looking forward to, that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Unfortunately Scripture does not tell us much about what Cornelius believed as a God fearer.

    The example of John the Baptist in the womb should not be used as the norm. Scripture does not tell us what exactly happened regarding John except that the "babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." To say that one can be regenerated then justified some time later after conversion does not stand up to any Scriptural standard.
     
  24. exscentric

    exscentric Puritan Board Freshman

    Then, relating to the Rom. passage they have the knowledge, but have hardened themselves (not related to inability due to the sinful nature/totally depraved man) in whatever manner to the point that they are "unable" to respond to God in any manner.

    Thus, the revelation is there so that they will turn against what they saw and are now without excuse by their own doing/choice.

    Seems that the only (general) difference between teams is then the fact that the other guys just don't see the self imposed inability, but just that the lost choose not to respond to the revelation.

    So, is the inabilty of last man that critical to his lack of salvation in the reform view? Seems he chooses either way.
     
  25. turmeric

    turmeric Megerator

    His will is unconstrained, but he always makes the wrong choice, the inability is [b:b6c0ad241e]moral[/b:b6c0ad241e] not like a handicap, as the Arminians suppose we are saying, but a consistent wrong choice.

    Jonathan Edwards' [u:b6c0ad241e]Freedom of the Will[/u:b6c0ad241e] is an excellent resource, though' I may have misunderstood it somewhat.
     
  26. exscentric

    exscentric Puritan Board Freshman

    So it is a choice that he has no choice in. If he can't make a choice to do either he has no choice.

    If it is a moral issue, why do many lost people live moral lives? They choose to live good, why wouldn't they be able to make another moral choice to seek God?

    I appologize for taking this thread so off topic.
     
  27. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:3cab6b8b27][i:3cab6b8b27]Originally posted by exscentric[/i:3cab6b8b27]
    So it is a choice that he has no choice in. If he can't make a choice to do either he has no choice.

    If it is a moral issue, why do many lost people live moral lives? They choose to live good, why wouldn't they be able to make another moral choice to seek God?

    I appologize for taking this thread so off topic. [/quote:3cab6b8b27]

    It's not about a moral issue, its about man's own nature. Man chooses what he desires at that moment. Man's will is not coersed in anyway. But because man's nature is corrupted by sin, man's nature is unwilling and incapable of doing what is righteous before God, which is total complete obediance (a result of the fall and the imputed sin of Adam on his posterity).

    This is from the WCF Chapter 9 on Free Will:

    I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

    II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

    III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

    IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

    V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]

    Scripture:

    [1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

    [2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    [3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    [4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    [5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    [6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

    [7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

    [8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    [9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    [10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    [11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
     
  28. exscentric

    exscentric Puritan Board Freshman

    I was responding to the post above - do you disagree with it - must.

    :smile:
     
  29. BC

    BC Inactive User

    Ok, I know this post has deviated from the original but I still have a few qs that I haven't recvd clear answers to:

    Fred, you say a 2nd baptism leads to lots of theological probs - what are they?

    How about the clear instances of the apostles laying hands on ppl who had 'received the word of God' so that they receive the Holy Spirit? - e.g. Acts 8 : 5-17.

    Moreover, doesn't the word 'apostle' mean 'sent forth from God'. So where did we get the definition that they had to be witnesses of Jesus?

    And about prophesying, according to the word of God, does prophesying mean 'foretell' ? Is 'foretelling' regarding an individual person still applicable today provided it is consistent with the word?

    Are visions & dreams still applicable today?

    Seeking answers - .....
     
  30. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:a950ec01c0]How about the clear instances of the apostles laying hands on ppl who had 'received the word of God' so that they receive the Holy Spirit? - e.g. Acts 8 : 5-17.[/quote:a950ec01c0]

    those were unique events in history to signify the gentiles being allowed in the kingdom.

    [quote:a950ec01c0]And about prophesying, according to the word of God, does prophesying mean 'foretell' ? Is 'foretelling' regarding an individual person still applicable today provided it is consistent with the word?

    Are visions & dreams still applicable today?[/quote:a950ec01c0]

    There is only ONE Word of the Lord. If the canon is closed, all extra-biblical revelation has ceased.

    [quote:a950ec01c0]Moreover, doesn't the word 'apostle' mean 'sent forth from God'. So where did we get the definition that they had to be witnesses of Jesus?[/quote:a950ec01c0]

    1 Cor. 15:5-8 "and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." What made the apostles credible is that they seen the risen Lord with their own eyes, and the risen Lord commissioned them personally.


    [Edited on 3-3-2004 by rembrandt]
     
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