Baptism of the Holy Spirit - A separate event?

Discussion in 'Pneumatology' started by BC, Feb 24, 2004.

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  1. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:5e7ce02afd][i:5e7ce02afd]Originally posted by Bibin[/i:5e7ce02afd]
    Ok, I know this post has deviated from the original but I still have a few qs that I haven't recvd clear answers to:

    Fred, you say a 2nd baptism leads to lots of theological probs - what are they?

    How about the clear instances of the apostles laying hands on ppl who had 'received the word of God' so that they receive the Holy Spirit? - e.g. Acts 8 : 5-17.

    Moreover, doesn't the word 'apostle' mean 'sent forth from God'. So where did we get the definition that they had to be witnesses of Jesus?

    And about prophesying, according to the word of God, does prophesying mean 'foretell' ? Is 'foretelling' regarding an individual person still applicable today provided it is consistent with the word?

    Are visions & dreams still applicable today?

    Seeking answers - ..... [/quote:5e7ce02afd]

    You ask:
    Fred, you say a 2nd baptism leads to lots of theological probs - what are they?

    Scott answers:

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, [b:5e7ce02afd]ye were sealed [/b:5e7ce02afd]with that holy Spirit of promise,



    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    You ask about Acts ch 8

    Scott answers:
    This was a validating to the Jews that the Gospel had indeed reached out to (even) the gentiles. Up until this point, the Jews had not yet been literally convinced. This proved the point.

    And about prophesying:
    You write:

    And about prophesying, according to the word of God, does prophesying mean 'foretell' ? Is 'foretelling' regarding an individual person still applicable today provided it is consistent with the word?

    I ask you, if prophesying is consistant with the word, why does one need to hear it from anyone else; just read the word..........

    [Edited on 3-3-2004 by Scott Bushey]
     
  2. BC

    BC Inactive User

    Thanks Scott & Rembrandt for your responses.

    Still have a few qs -

    1) God used prophets in the OT to minister to His saints in accordance with their personal needs. Although the Holy Spirit teaches us all things, why aren't prophets ministering to individual needs applicable today?

    2) Where in Scripture does it point that these 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' incidents were solely shown as a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were to be included? Sure it was a sign, but couldn't it also simply be a 'higher' spiritual grace imparted to the receiver?

    3) Is it possible that what the Pentecostals & Charismatics call a 'baptism of the HS' is actually a 'growing IN the Spirit'?

    4) Are there any incidents of tongues after 100 AD? and of course, before the 20th century!

    5) When apostle Paul said 'last unto me' - couldn't he be speaking with reference to when he was writing the epistle - i.e. at that time period, he was the last one. We got tests for testing prophets given throughout scripture. If we apply them all and find that a prophet passes them all, what are we to do?

    6) Is it true that Satan and his cohorts can NEVER confess that Jesus died for our sins AND rose from the dead? Any scriptural backing? i.e. can a man indwelt by Satan actually confess this? Is this a sure-fire test?

    These are Qs that have arisen during my discussions with my Pentecostal friend - I am still seeking answers...
     
  3. heartoflesh

    heartoflesh Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:82deedbd02]
    2) Where in Scripture does it point that these 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' incidents were solely shown as a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were to be included? Sure it was a sign, but couldn't it also simply be a 'higher' spiritual grace imparted to the receiver? [/quote:82deedbd02]

    First of all, I would highly recommend you read Frederick Bruner's "Theology of the Holy Spirit", as it deals very directly with your questions.

    As to your question above-- the onus is on those who believe the baptism of the spirit to be a "higher level" experience to show where this doctrine is clearly stated in scripture.

    Let's take Acts 8 for example:

    The Samaritans have received the word of God. This is the first time we read of the gospel spreading beyond Jerusalem. Peter and John are sent to the samaritans. This is important to notice--they didn't just send Joe and Bob.

    Peter and John...."prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had [b:82deedbd02]not yet[/b:82deedbd02] fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

    I highlighted "not yet" because that's the key to understanding this passage. The passage does not say the Spirit [b:82deedbd02]hadn't fallen[/b:82deedbd02] on the Samaritans, but that it had not [b:82deedbd02]yet[/b:82deedbd02] fallen on them. It suggests something which is inevitable. It is going to happen. It must happen.

    The meaning of the passage is this: The gospel had now spread beyong Jerusalem, and the leading Apostles are sent to give their apostolic stamp of approval to this.

    This passage does not teach that something "extra" should be sought after or obtained, but it teaches that receiving the word of God [b:82deedbd02]and[/b:82deedbd02] baptism in the spirit are two things which must always go together.

    ~Rick
     
  4. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:620d925e18]
    1) God used prophets in the OT to minister to His saints in accordance with their personal needs. Although the Holy Spirit teaches us all things, why aren't prophets ministering to individual needs applicable today?
    [/quote:620d925e18]

    A Prophet was one who communicated directly with God, whether "foretelling" or "forthtelling". As Hebrews 1:1 notes, these were "former" ways of communication. With the passing of this office, God has called Elders to minister to to the Church (Acts 20).


    [quote:620d925e18]
    2) Where in Scripture does it point that these 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' incidents were solely shown as a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were to be included? Sure it was a sign, but couldn't it also simply be a 'higher' spiritual grace imparted to the receiver?

    3) Is it possible that what the Pentecostals & Charismatics call a 'baptism of the HS' is actually a 'growing IN the Spirit'?
    [/quote:620d925e18]

    Note tha in all the situations regarding Baptism in the book of Acts were to new believers. Consider also Matt 28:28 where Christ commanded the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. With this we can determine that there is only "one" baptism not two. The baptism in the Spirit as stated in Acts is the same baptism that would be if the people in Acts were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We can not divide the Holy Spirit from the rest of the Trinity.


    There is no specific verse that states that tongues is a sign of the inclusion of the Gentiles. But it is inferred that since people were now speaking in other known languages by the power of God, that God was definately working amoung the Gentile nations. Consider the story of Cornelius in Acts 10:44ff.

    As far as Baptism in the Holy Spirit being a growing in the Spirit, we call that sanctification. All Christians will be sanctified. There is no biblical evidence showing that Baptism in the Spirit corresponds to growing in the Spirit. Besides, Pentecostals and Charismatics look at the second baptism as a separate event that does not happen to everyone, but Rom 8:28ff makes it clear that all who are called will be conformed to the image of Christ, ie; sanctification.


    [quote:620d925e18]
    4) Are there any incidents of tongues after 100 AD? and of course, before the 20th century!
    [/quote:620d925e18]

    Yes. It was known as the Montanist Heresy. Many call the current Charismatic movement as Neo-Montanism.


    [quote:620d925e18]
    5) When apostle Paul said 'last unto me' - couldn't he be speaking with reference to when he was writing the epistle - i.e. at that time period, he was the last one. We got tests for testing prophets given throughout scripture. If we apply them all and find that a prophet passes them all, what are we to do?
    [/quote:620d925e18]

    A better reference as to what makes an Apostle and Apostle is Acts 1:22. Since no one today has been taught directly by Christ or witnessed His resurrection, there can be no Apostles today.


    [quote:620d925e18]
    6) Is it true that Satan and his cohorts can NEVER confess that Jesus died for our sins AND rose from the dead? Any scriptural backing? i.e. can a man indwelt by Satan actually confess this? Is this a sure-fire test?
    [/quote:620d925e18]

    Anyone can confess. But the real question is do they really believe/trust Christ. Note how the demons in the Gospels made great professions as to who Christ was and also note in James how he mentions that even the demons believe and tremble (Ja 2:19). The differences is they do not trust Christ for salvation.
     
  5. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    Matthew,
    What was that book you previously spoke of (The one which John Mac used as a resource for his book, "Charasmatic Chaos" )?

    [Edited on 3-4-2004 by Scott Bushey]
     
  6. heartoflesh

    heartoflesh Puritan Board Junior

    Being filled with the Spirit is the same thing as letting the word of Christ dwell in us. Notice the similarities in the following passages:

    [u:813c113f57]Ephesians 5:18-21[/u:813c113f57]
    18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but [b:813c113f57]be filled with the Spirit,[/b:813c113f57] 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.


    [u:813c113f57]Colossians 3:16-17[/u:813c113f57]
    16 [b:813c113f57]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly[/b:813c113f57] in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

    [Edited on 3-5-2004 by Rick Larson]
     
  7. Craig

    Craig Puritan Board Senior

    I'm getting in this topic kinda late.

    I don't believe in a "second" grace where you're baptized in the Holy Spirit (i.e. Wesleyan holy roller types).

    What I'm scratching my head on is the regeration of a person possibly years before conversion. The same people advocating this are also people who think inclusivism is an error...if one really believes this, isn't inclusivism a logical consequence?

    Obviously regeneration precedes justification, but what is the baptism of the spirit? Is it justification, or is it more of an existential thing? I think may be a combo of the two.

    [Edited on 3-5-2004 by Craig]
     
  8. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    As for the confusion regarding the book of Acts, note that this is a historical book and was not meant for teaching doctrine as did the epistles. It was simply to document history. Anybody who treats this book like an epistle will run into all kinds of hermenuetical problems.

    [quote:14b7936e57]What I'm scratching my head on is the regeration of a person possibly years before conversion.[/quote:14b7936e57]

    I say we start a new thread on this. The issue was raised in previous threads/posts and was never thoroughly dealt with.

    Rembrandt
     
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