Baptists join diverse faith groups to support mosque-building effort

Discussion in 'Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church' started by Pergamum, May 31, 2016.

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  1. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    For any supporters of Russell Moore and the ERLC out there:

  2. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

  3. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

  4. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    No, it is defending the First Amendment. Because if we let them start chipping away at the Constitution, it isn't going to be long before WE end up on the list of folks that can't build churches. Do you really want to come down on the side that cities can keep churches out of town?

    RLUIPA came about because a Catholic church in Texas was not allowed to expand in a historic district, and the Supreme Court striking down the prior Religious Freedom Restoration Act in the resulting litigation. (City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997))
  5. reaganmarsh

    reaganmarsh Puritan Board Senior

    Dr. Moore used to speak about this kind of thing regularly while I was studying at SBTS. His position was basically as Edward lays about above; if religious freedom is devalued or attacked, it's all religious freedom which is jeopardized, not just the other guy's.
  6. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Sure they can build mosques.... but not with my dime! And Christian groups shouldn't be funding mosques. Saying a group is free to do something is different than donating to their cause.
  7. uberkermit

    uberkermit Puritan Board Freshman

    “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

    “You shall have no other gods before me.

    “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    (Exodus 20:1-6 ESV)​

    When Christ returns, will he permit mosques to remain?

    If the price to pay for freedom of religion is contrary to the will of Christ, I want nothing to do with it.
  8. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    I draw a distinction between contributing to the building fund and signing onto an Amicus.

    Becket got in on the ground floor of RLUIPA litigation. If a church finds itself in this kind of mess, they should at least look at the Beckett resources.
  9. bookslover

    bookslover Puritan Board Doctor

    Yeah but, if the tables were turned, why do I doubt that mosques would lift a finger to help build Christian churches?
  10. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    Edward, with you being a lawyer I have a quick historical question. When The First was passed did the people of that time have any idea of any religion besides the Christian religion?
  11. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

    IANAL (not sure why its relevant) but Thomas Jefferson had interactions with Islam (including owning a Koran and the Barbary Wars), and some people say he was even accused of being one. Not to mention Judaism and non-Protestant sects.
  12. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    Jews fought in and helped finance the American Revolution. While they were generally well treated in Georgia and South Carolina, they faced restrictions in some of the other states. Recall George Washington's 1790 letter to the Jewish congregation in Rhode Island (where they weren't as well treated.)

    Muslims were much less well established, but as early as July, 1776, Richard Henry Lee of Virginia said, ""True freedom embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo as well as the Christian religion." Jefferson and Washington both alluded, not unfavorably, to the Mahamdan/Mahomitan/Mohometans. On the other hand, some were denouncing Islam. So the issues were well enough established that there was informed debate by the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights.
  13. reaganmarsh

    reaganmarsh Puritan Board Senior

    Dear brother, I thoroughly concur. My intention in this post was merely to speak to what & why Dr. Moore has taken this course of action: he's being consistent with what he's taught in the past.
  14. kodos

    kodos Puritan Board Junior

    True freedom would never favor false religion. That is the problem with a purely libertarian definition of 'freedom': it advances spiritual bondage.

    Psalm 146:7-10
    The LORD gives freedom to the prisoners.

    8 The LORD opens the eyes of the blind;
    The LORD raises those who are bowed down;
    The LORD loves the righteous.
    9 The LORD watches over the strangers;
    He relieves the fatherless and widow;
    But the way of the wicked He turns upside down.

    10 The LORD shall reign forever—
    Your God, O Zion, to all generations.

    Praise the LORD!
  15. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    Thank you. I see what side of the debate won by the lack of a certain words as we read today in the documents of our country. Is it no wonder why Our Lord is judging our nation much quicker than many nations of times past.
  16. Parakaleo

    Parakaleo Puritan Board Sophomore

    Does anyone seriously think that Paul or Peter would attach their names to this undertaking?
  17. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    My issue is the MONEY involved. And the SUPPORT and ENDORSEMENT of false religion.

    Sure, make sure the First Amendment applies to all. But if the Muslims want to build their houses of worship, it will not be with any of my help. To not persecute false religion is one thing, to go and lay the bricks or build the idols is another...

    ...and they are using the money of Christians to do this. Probably many donors are not aware of these activities. The funds are coming from other Christians thinking they are giving to a worthy cause.

    Russell Moore ought to be held accountable for this and deposed as the Pope of Baptist Ethics. I'm sick of him.
  18. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Some are saying the accusations are unfair against Moore and the Baptist leaders (who seem to dabble more and more on immigration and leftist social issues, even being funded by Soros).

    Here are two additional thoughts:

    ---Lawyers donate time to causes. There is not much difference between donating time and legal expertise in matters such as this....meanwhile, many other more pressing legal issues press the church. But....can't deal with that now....gotta help the Muslims.

    How much time and transportation and hours in meetings, and legal fees, and hours away from churches, and time away from causes which more directly help the church is now being spent on Muslims (the largest religious bloc on earth)? Do a billion Muslims really need the SBC's help?

    --- You can tell a lot about a person by who their friends are. Joining hands with the world and with false religion, and then spending much time and money and effort on such partnering activities, is very troubling.
  19. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

  20. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm not a huge Moore fan. But can you point out where Cooperative Program (i.e. SBC) money is involved in this? I don't see anything of the kind in the article, which is about supporting the Muslims in a court case. Has anything happened here other than filing an amicus brief? Your posts come across as if direct funding of the mosque is on the table.

    If all that has been done is file an amicus brief, (friend of the court) from what I understand that is not at all the same as "filing suit" as Dr. Land is quoted as claiming in the HuffPo article you linked.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
  21. reaganmarsh

    reaganmarsh Puritan Board Senior

    If CP funds are involved, it will be a major problem. I don't think Dr. Moore would do anything so foolish as that.
  22. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    The ERLC is supported through the funds of the Cooperative Program.

    1.65% of CP funds go towards supporting the ERLC and all of its actions, which amounts to 3.236 million dollars.

    So, in effect, this means that some of this 3 million dollars' worth of the tithes and offerings of baptist folks are going towards any time and effort expended in this enterprise.

    In the meantime, the IMB is talking about sending home 600-800 IMB missionaries due to lack of missionary funding.

    That is why I favor abolishing the ERLC. The Church's Mandate is not to tweet about immigration or to sign amicus briefs on behalf of Muslims but to Preach the Word and Disciple the nations.
  23. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Meanwhile, I just ran across an announcement by the ERLC.

    They publicly urged that local churchgoers ought to be more active in their local communities in order to get local zoning laws tightened in an effort to disallow strip clubs in local communities....

    ...and then they advocate for looser zoning laws so that mosques can be built.

    Because dirty dancing is a bigger threat than the proliferation of Islam, I guess.
  24. Andrew P.C.

    Andrew P.C. Puritan Board Junior

    The constitution is ungodly. It not only abandons Christ, but is specifically anti-Christ by not acknowledging Christ as Lord but rather "We The People". With that said, I'd rather have churches go underground then support idolatry. Seems also like God would rather have the altars and idols torn down then built up (Deut 12:2-3; Ex. 34:13-14; Judges 6:25).
  25. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Graduate

    :ditto: and :amen:
  26. Dekybo

    Dekybo Puritan Board Freshman

    I sincerely hope that my congregation and I's tithe does not go to the advancement of evil.
  27. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    If you give through the Cooperative Program, then 1.68% of your offerings go to the ERLC and its activities. Your church is helping to keep the ERLC alive.

    The activities of the ERLC of late have been: To paint Jesus as an illegal alien, to support liberal and progressive immigration policies, to bash the "white church" in America, to say that any Trump supporter is a moron (without equal hate-time for Sanders and Clinton, a socialist and a felon), to bash the faithful Judge Roy Moore for not conducting gay marriages and to call for his resignation, to state that the desire of gays to marry was honorable because they desired to be in a long-term relationship, and many other silly things.

    Much of what the ERLC writes is very good (particularly in medical ethics), but their social policies (particularly race and immigration) often sound leftist and progressive and, no wonder, since they are part of the Evangelical Immigration Table, funded by the liberal George Soros.

    Also, the very existence of an extra-ecclesiastical governing body speaking authoritatively as a mouthpiece for all baptists and existing outside (and above, really) the local churches, is a monstrosity of ecclesiology that should be killed. This is not even a "parachurch" entity, for it is not "alongside" the church at all. The ERLC is, instead, dictating to churches what they should believe...they are above the church.

    ...and the ERLC is alive and well due to over 3 million dollars of tithes and offerings that could be used to help the 600-800 IMB missionaries in danger of coming home due to the current financial crisis within the SBC.

    I made the suggestion on Facebook that Southern Baptists might consider pulling out of the SBC if they did not abolish the ERLC. I was met with a whole flurry of anger.

    But I believe that any SBC churches out there who are reading this ought to make their continuance within the SBC contingent upon the abolishing of the ERLC.
  28. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    The zoning discrimination in question is a real concern for church planters in many areas. I know that zoning has been used as a political weapon to block building churches in a number of urban and suburban settings. There's a reason why my hometown has only had one new church constructed in the 16 years since my family moved there.

    In the eyes of US law, an Amicus brief supporting a mosque is the same as an Amicus brief supporting a church. If churches can be built, then so can mosques.
  29. JoannaV

    JoannaV Puritan Board Sophomore

    According to Google, there are Muslims who helped build churches. There are also articles saying that doing such things is evil as it is supporting the spread of apostasy.
  30. Parakaleo

    Parakaleo Puritan Board Sophomore

    Call me a theonomist if you want, but I believe the building of mosques or Buddhist temples or high places to be evil and should be opposed by believers. Even if it means we can't build churches.

    The nation or municipality that would prohibit the building of churches, but would allow them if plans for mosques are pushed through and built, is not worthy to be crowned with the jewel of a church building.
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