Being on a bed with the opposite sex

[Herald]

Bill, I used that FOR REAL! (lol)

 

[LeeJUk]

that application was
Nice one

 

[Beoga]

I know and have friends who lay in bed with there fiances or what not (they are Christians). They are not sexually active, not even lusting or what not from what they tell me and what I see, but is this ok? Is it ok to be in bed with your fiance to like watch a movie and is it ok to sleep in the same bed maybe like a nap, if you are not sexually active or lusting etc?

I feel convicted on this issue as a no for the last question but just curious to see the Biblical support that I may be not paying attention to.



ps. hope this is in the right place

If it is not sinful, then it is extremely stupid.
I have different views than a lot of my christian friends down here at school. I think marriage is something more than "now you get to have sex," which I know they do too, but it is not demonstrated by their actions. I have had a number of friends who would put their girlfriends or fiancees to bed every night, sometimes falling asleep with them until the alarm on their cell phone told them to go home so that they wouldn't spend the night because that would be wrong. I even know someone whose fiancee doesn't have a roommate and he will still do this every night. This is seen as acceptable among my Christian friends. I think that this is the Christian form of living together because with this, every waking second not spent at work or in class, is spent together. They eat at one of their places every morning and night, do laundry together, clean apartments, run errands, etc. The only thing they don't do is spend the night together or have sex and so they “haven't crossed the line yet." Now, I am glad they like spending time with each other, and I am not necessarily opposed to couples doing these things, but every day and at every occurrence seems too much like being one without officially being one.
Like people have said, “flee sexual temptation” and “let there not be a hint of sexual immorality among you.” Being in bed with your significant other, while you may not being engaging in any sexual activity, does not foster obedience to these commands. Save the joy of falling asleep together, and whatever accompanies that, for marriage.
Sorry for my rant, it has been something I have been dealing with a lot over the past year. I have sometimes expressed my disagreement to which I may hear replies of “don't worry” or “you wouldn't understand because you don't have a girlfriend."
Long story short, don't be stupid, and the actions described in your questions are stupid.

 

[smhbbag]

Bill, I used that FOR REAL! (lol)

So did my father-in-law

 

[Edward]

If the couple is being completely candid, perhaps they should pass on the whole idea of marriage.

 

[he beholds]

Only in our epoch do we have to even ask these questions that most unbelievers in the past had the correct answers. Generations of people until about fifty years ago understood why unmarried couples should not be alone in bed or even at all. My future bride and I have had to draw up our own guidelines for our conduct because the social contructs for men and women are gone. If one isn't deliberate about doing so the bar is no dobout set too low and trouble will result.

I agree and this is true for the most part. There is a notable and extremely odd exception:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_(tradition)

That's exactly what came to mind for me, too! When I ran across that once I was very surprised that, really, no temptation is new.

He [Jonathan Edwards] also attacked the custom of 'bundling,' where young courting people fully clothed would lie in bed. He charged, 'It is one of those things that lead and and expose to sin.'

 

[AThornquist]

Better wrap tight. If there is the chance of a young male getting out, he'll find it!

 

[Brian Withnell]

Maybe not a bed. But a futon might be OK. Yeah, that's it. A futon. Or, maybe a couch. But not a bed.

 

[Jesus is my friend]

There is much excellent advice here and I just wanted to add and I believe this is important for the man to hear:

You as future leader of a potential marriage need to "draw a line" in the sand so to speak and be the one to set boundries before your lady friend/fiancee whatever,This is a very important step in leadership,to set the example,so I believe whatever decision you come to after recieving the scriptural support/Godly counsel, you need to initiate,in this you will show her you love and respect your Lord,her and her parents and she will hopefully see you making Godly decisions,This goes very deep and is crucial for the development of a Godly courtship,the alternative would be a potential disaster.But in laying your foundation in these seemingly small decisions you are laying a foundation in Christ for your (and His) future Bride

 

[asc]

I know and have friends who lay in bed with there fiances or what not (they are Christians). They are not sexually active, not even lusting...

Wow, is that possible??

 

[ZackF]

I know and have friends who lay in bed with there fiances or what not (they are Christians). They are not sexually active, not even lusting...

Wow, is that possible??

I wondered, if the whole thing is so innocent, why they don't just mix and match girlfriend/boyfriends? If you are engaged and in love with Susy, why not sleep "next" to your best friend Bob's girlfriend Sally. Surely modesty isn't any issue anyway. The whole thing would laughable if it were not so serious.

 

[T.U.L.I.P. TYLER]

alright Guys, this really was about a friend and not me...I am married but thanks for the concern

 

[py3ak]

I agree with the arguments about avoiding temptations to sin. If we put ourselves into temptations way, it must be no surprise when we fall. You, whoever you are, have to be realistic about this.

That being said, though, there is something that ought to be noticed. One is that our sex-crazed culture can't be allowed to influence us to the point where we come to agree that really sex is behind everything. Not all physical contact is sexual; not all friendship is reducible to sexual longing; even being in love is not entirely or perhaps even primarily sexual. And so the assumption that sexual longing is more or less always operative, I take to be a sellout to worldliness no less than spending the night at your girlfriend's apartment.
There is another explanation for the desire for physical closeness and contact: it's called tenderness and you see it most days that you see small children.

And to the potential fathers-in-law, I would like to say that you should spend your energy protecting your daughters from wicked men - not from those you happen not to like. Your wisdom and your judgment are far from infallible. And if you want to be involved in the life of your grandchildren, making your future son-in-law jump through a series of demeaning hoops is not the cleverest way to accomplish that.

 

[LawrenceU]

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

Never? What if he has repented?

At my age (25), I would feel extremely blessed to find a man who had not had sex; much less one who had never once looked at p0rnography. I am definitely not debating you on this issue, just wondering about my own standards.

Edit: It does make me a little sick to think of that filth being in a man's mind.

 

[he beholds]

I agree with the arguments about avoiding temptations to sin. If we put ourselves into temptations way, it must be no surprise when we fall. You, whoever you are, have to be realistic about this.

That being said, though, there is something that ought to be noticed. One is that our sex-crazed culture can't be allowed to influence us to the point where we come to agree that really sex is behind everything. Not all physical contact is sexual; not all friendship is reducible to sexual longing; even being in love is not entirely or perhaps even primarily sexual. And so the assumption that sexual longing is more or less always operative, I take to be a sellout to worldliness no less than spending the night at your girlfriend's apartment.
There is another explanation for the desire for physical closeness and contact: it's called tenderness and you see it most days that you see small children.

And to the potential fathers-in-law, I would like to say that you should spend your energy protecting your daughters from wicked men - not from those you happen not to like. Your wisdom and your judgment are far from infallible. And if you want to be involved in the life of your grandchildren, making your future son-in-law jump through a series of demeaning hoops is not the cleverest way to accomplish that.

I agree with you.
Also, I think you are supposed to be, or at least allowed to be, somewhat intimate before you are married. I would not want to marry someone whom I had not been emotionally intimate with. My husband was my best friend before we started dating, and when we started dating, he left to teach in China. We knew everything about eachother because all we could do is talk and write letters. There were no movies, dinners, boardgames, etc to distract us. Our "dates" were literally hours spent talking on the phone.
Some people here said that we should not even be emotionally intimate before we are married. Barring arranged marriages--how does that happen? And I personally think that some physical intimacy is good before marriage. I'm not talking about rounding the bases, but being close and feeling a spark when you hold someone's hand or even when you snuggle and watch a movie. Even if you fall asleep.

I think that lying together could of course lead to temptation. And I know that we do not want to chase lust, as it is already chasing us. But, I think some Christians get married and the women have a very difficult time being physical intimate then, because her parents have been reading threads like these all her life! If my dad was to send me down the aisle to a complete stranger, I don't think we'd have two kids by now.
I mean, to think even sitting together is wrong in the morning, but after the three o'clock ceremony anything's a go...

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

I hope that my daughter finds a man like her father, who is exactly as you describe. However, if the man who loves and cherishes her has had an impure past, I don't think we can deny forgiveness where Christ extends it. If he's made worthy enough to be Christ's bride, I think he'd be, ultimately, worthy enough to have my daughter as his.

 

[ZackF]

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

Never? What if he has repented?

At my age (25), I would feel extremely blessed to find a man who had not had sex; much less one who had never once looked at p0rnography. I am definitely not debating you on this issue, just wondering about my own standards.

Edit: It does make me a little sick to think of that filth being in a man's mind.

I've never had a conversation about p0rnography with any man who has claimed to never have looked at it. I have no doubt that some are out there though.

 

[TimV]

I've never had a conversation about p0rnography with any man who has claimed to never have looked at it.

I never did, and would have passed all of Lawrences tests. But my rebellion against all authority was so bad that I think my family would have preferred my main problem being P#rn. I guess we've got to keep in mind that we have a tendency to make the sins we don't have a problem with more serious than those we do have a problem with.

 

[he beholds]

I've never had a conversation about p0rnography with any man who has claimed to never have looked at it. I have no doubt that some are out there though.

I know of three. And I know a lot of guys (not that I know what they do, but I've only heard of three!). And two are taken. Hopefully I can raise a couple for your daughters, but if not, I hope someone marries my son(s).

 

[nicnap]

I know and have friends who lay in bed with there fiances or what not (they are Christians). They are not sexually active, not even lusting...

Wow, is that possible??

I wondered, if the whole thing is so innocent, why they don't just mix and match girlfriend/boyfriends? If you are engaged and in love with Susy, why not sleep "next" to your best friend Bob's girlfriend Sally. Surely modesty isn't any issue anyway. The whole thing would laughable if it were not so serious.

Oops...sorry...didn't mean to hit thanks...was just reading, and some how tapped it here. I hadn't read it when the thanks was hit.

 

[ZackF]

I've never had a conversation about p0rnography with any man who has claimed to never have looked at it. I have no doubt that some are out there though.

I know of three. And I know a lot of guys (not that I know what they do, but I've only heard of three!). And two are taken. Hopefully I can raise a couple for your daughters, but if not, I hope someone marries my son(s).

Sweetheart, I don't have any daughters yet. God willing, my fiancee and I will be expecting by this time next year. If your sons are still eligible by the time a daughter of mine is, that would great!!

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Also, I think you are supposed to be, or at least allowed to be, somewhat intimate before you are married. I would not want to marry someone whom I had not been emotionally intimate with. My husband was my best friend before we started dating, and when we started dating, he left to teach in China. We knew everything about eachother because all we could do is talk and write letters. There were no movies, dinners, boardgames, etc to distract us. Our "dates" were literally hours spent talking on the phone.
Some people here said that we should not even be emotionally intimate before we are married. Barring arranged marriages--how does that happen? And I personally think that some physical intimacy is good before marriage. I'm not talking about rounding the bases, but being close and feeling a spark when you hold someone's hand or even when you snuggle and watch a movie. Even if you fall asleep.

I agree with all of this. It is difficult for me to pinpoint the level of intimacy that I discussed earlier, but I meant that in response to the description of people nearly living together. I've already tried to clarify this in a PM earlier today, but I think I meant (as ambiguous as this sounds) that one should not "leave [her] father and mother" emotionally before it's time; nor should a young woman think that the emotional intimacy she craves can be completely separated from sex. (Not that many people consciously think this -- I couldn't comment with any knowledge on the gender stereotypes about sex and emotion -- but I've seen friends who thought they could have the emotional intimacy without the sexual end up compromising their original values. I just sense that the two are connected in ways that I can't pretend to understand.)

I'm definitely not opposed to emotional closeness (of different gradations) between unmarried people. As you say, this is absolutely unavoidable unless your marriage is arranged. But I am still single and pretty silly sometimes, so that is probably why I am overemphasizing emotional caution.

 

[LawrenceU]

I've never had a conversation about p0rnography with any man who has claimed to never have looked at it. I have no doubt that some are out there though.

I know of three. And I know a lot of guys (not that I know what they do, but I've only heard of three!). And two are taken. Hopefully I can raise a couple for your daughters, but if not, I hope someone marries my son(s).

We take this very seriously and keep fairly close tabs on the young men in our life. I know that may sound odd, my daughter is only 13. But, we do not want our daughter to suffer much of the heartache that we have seen in the lives of so many young people that we have and are counseling. And, she will be of marrying age more quickly than I like to think about. I know that many see the standards that I mentioned as unattainably high, but they are what I see as a starting place. God may change that, but that is what he has led me to hold.

Additionally, as it becomes more apparent that p0rnography has taken a very firm hold in the church fathers are 'fessing up' with their sons before they become tainted by the 'skubalon'. They are open regarding the damage it has caused in their life and marriage. This seems to be leading to a new generation of young men who are serious about making a covenant with their eyes.

I'll be praying for you as you raise your sons. It is perhaps more difficult to do so now than at anytime in our nation's history.

 

[py3ak]

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

Well, depending on what you mean by "pure" and how much tact you've been blessed with, this could either be a wonderful beginning; or it could create issues that your daughter and her husband will spend years working through - probably without your assistance.

 

[LawrenceU]

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

Well, depending on what you mean by "pure" and how much tact you've been blessed with, this could either be a wonderful beginning; or it could create issues that your daughter and her husband will spend years working through - probably without your assistance.

I've seen it go both ways. For a father to have input he must have built a very solid relationship with his daughter over the years. That is what we are doing.

 

[ZackF]

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

Well, depending on what you mean by "pure" and how much tact you've been blessed with, this could either be a wonderful beginning; or it could create issues that your daughter and her husband will spend years working through - probably without your assistance.

An image of Robert De Niro hooking up electrodes might give one ideas in eliciting tact. However, I think the fellow above who had the idea of building rapport with the men (or women for that matter) in your childs life is almost as important as the relationship with the child.

 

[py3ak]

Yeah, it can go both ways: that's why you can't have a one-size-fits-all solution. And of course fathers need to be prepared for some pretty radical self-denial: the realization that their little girl is coming to come to love, and value and even respect some one more than her dad. If a father is joyful about that prospect, and honest with himself about his own past, it probably goes a long way towards keeping him from mistreating a man who will be very important in the family's future. Patriarchalism can become a matter of pride, as much as a matter of conviction or solid principle: and in that case it can be a very venomous poison.

I think the matter of serial attachments may be the most significant issue in the way that relationships are manifesting strain in our time.

 

[py3ak]

I agree with the arguments about avoiding temptations to sin. If we put ourselves into temptations way, it must be no surprise when we fall. You, whoever you are, have to be realistic about this.

That being said, though, there is something that ought to be noticed. One is that our sex-crazed culture can't be allowed to influence us to the point where we come to agree that really sex is behind everything. Not all physical contact is sexual; not all friendship is reducible to sexual longing; even being in love is not entirely or perhaps even primarily sexual. And so the assumption that sexual longing is more or less always operative, I take to be a sellout to worldliness no less than spending the night at your girlfriend's apartment.
There is another explanation for the desire for physical closeness and contact: it's called tenderness and you see it most days that you see small children.

And to the potential fathers-in-law, I would like to say that you should spend your energy protecting your daughters from wicked men - not from those you happen not to like. Your wisdom and your judgment are far from infallible. And if you want to be involved in the life of your grandchildren, making your future son-in-law jump through a series of demeaning hoops is not the cleverest way to accomplish that.

I agree with you.
Also, I think you are supposed to be, or at least allowed to be, somewhat intimate before you are married. I would not want to marry someone whom I had not been emotionally intimate with. My husband was my best friend before we started dating, and when we started dating, he left to teach in China. We knew everything about eachother because all we could do is talk and write letters. There were no movies, dinners, boardgames, etc to distract us. Our "dates" were literally hours spent talking on the phone.
Some people here said that we should not even be emotionally intimate before we are married. Barring arranged marriages--how does that happen? And I personally think that some physical intimacy is good before marriage. I'm not talking about rounding the bases, but being close and feeling a spark when you hold someone's hand or even when you snuggle and watch a movie. Even if you fall asleep.

I think that lying together could of course lead to temptation. And I know that we do not want to chase lust, as it is already chasing us. But, I think some Christians get married and the women have a very difficult time being physical intimate then, because her parents have been reading threads like these all her life! If my dad was to send me down the aisle to a complete stranger, I don't think we'd have two kids by now.
I mean, to think even sitting together is wrong in the morning, but after the three o'clock ceremony anything's a go...

I don't plan on making any suitor jump through demeaning hoops. I do plan on vetting him, though. He must be a man who loves the Lord deeply, has a growing life of faith, he must be morally and sexually pure, he must have not been looking at p0rnography in his past, he must adore and cherish women in general, he must be a leader and one who is already capable of supporting a family. Those are the starting places.

I hope that my daughter finds a man like her father, who is exactly as you describe. However, if the man who loves and cherishes her has had an impure past, I don't think we can deny forgiveness where Christ extends it. If he's made worthy enough to be Christ's bride, I think he'd be, ultimately, worthy enough to have my daughter as his.

Excellent post, Jessi.

 

[ZackF]

I think the matter of serial attachments may be the most significant issue in the way that relationships are manifesting strain in our time.

That is probably what I agree with Brother Lawrence about the most. Sparing his daughter of years of petty puppyish romances and more serious breakups even when purity is preserved. That more than anything just plain jades a women and it make men even more indifferent about marriage at all.

 

[LawrenceU]

I think the matter of serial attachments may be the most significant issue in the way that relationships are manifesting strain in our time.

That is probably what I agree with Brother Lawrence about the most. Sparing his daughter of years of petty puppyish romances and more serious breakups even when purity is preserved. That more than anything just plain jades a women and it make men even more indifferent about marriage at all.

It has also trained more than one generation for divorce.