Beliefs of our Founders

[rbcbob]

I have been waiting for over 8 years for this book to be published! When Frazer's unbound (and expensive) doctoral thesis was available all those years ago I purchased it, read it, and felt that it was money well spent. Now that it is affordable and in hardcover I recommend it to all who would appreciate a thoroughly researched work on the personal religious, political and philosophical beliefs of the founders of these United States.


1 "The Religious Beliefs of America's Founders: Reason, Revelation, Revolution (American Political Thought)"
Gregg L. Frazer; Hardcover; $28.10
In Stock
Sold by: Amazon.com

 

[SRoper]

Thanks for this. I had just put Noll et. al.'s The Search for Christian America on my wishlist, but I may look into this one instead.

 

[rbcbob]

I have read Noll's TSFCA and it is good. Dr. Frazer's work has very many more quotations of the founders own writings.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Here is the link to buy it. I find the conclusion rendered to be very interesting.

Were America’s Founders Christians or deists? Conservatives and secularists have taken each position respectively, mustering evidence to insist just how tall the wall separating church and state should be. Now Gregg Frazer puts their arguments to rest in the first comprehensive analysis of the Founders’ beliefs as they themselves expressed them—showing that today’s political right and left are both wrong.


Going beyond church attendance or public pronouncements made for political ends, Frazer scrutinizes the Founders’ candid declarations regarding religion found in their private writings. Distilling decades of research, he contends that these men were neither Christian nor deist but rather adherents of a system he labels “theistic rationalism,” a hybrid belief system that combined elements of natural religion, Protestantism, and reason—with reason the decisive element.

I haven't read the book but by this descriptive it seems like a broad brush also.

Why couldn't it just be that there were Christians, Deists, Rationalist, and other sorts of men who were working from a Judeo-Christian ethic? Either way the book and providence that worked it was our Lord from Heaven using His book.

The Religious Beliefs of America's Founders: Reason,Revelation,Revolution (American Political Thought): Gregg L. Frazer: 9780700618453: Amazon.com: Books

 

[rbcbob]

Randy, you will need to read the book in order to assess the thorough evidence of the founders' own words. I had done four years of my own research, prior to reading Frazer's Ph.D. dissertation. I read literally thousands of primary source documents and upon reading Frazer I was pleased to find his work reaching essentially the same conclusion.

 

[Wayne]

John Witherspoon certainly didn't fall into a category of "theistic rationalism."

Who, for lack of my own research, were some of those who were undeniably evangelical Christians?
Patrick Henry is another who comes to mind, no?

To say it again, this thesis seems to paint with too broad a brush. Even if they were "mostly" tr's (we'll call them that for convenience here--lower case t, r), Witherspoon alone means they weren't ALL.

I have to wonder if the author, in stating things this way, isn't playing to secular academia?

 

[rbcbob]

Wayne, listen if you get opportunity, to the THINKING IN PUBLIC interview of Frazer by Al Mohler around September 10th. I think you will satisfied with it. As far as my own findings on Patrick Henry there is a paucity of hard evidence that he had a personal and living faith in God. His letter to his granddaughter late in life contains a sad admission to his lack of familiarity with the Bible. Frazer admits, as must I, that there were a few happy exceptions to what characterized the majority of the major figures of that day.

http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/09...e-a-conversation-with-historian-gregg-frazer/

 

[Wayne]

For the moment, I can rest with the admission of a few happy circumstances.

 

[Shawn Mathis]

Thank you, Bob, for bringing this to our attention. I, too, have read much on early American history (not as much as you!). I had learned the Founders were a mixed bag. But especially looking into the laws that were enacted, that the intellectual roots (although not pure) were strongly influenced by Calvinism (see Berman, Elazar and Witte).

Now, this work seems quite interesting but I will wait for more reviews. I, too, am put off with the sweeping generalizations. One strong counter example is the work (ten-plus years!) of Dr. Lillback on Washington's religions life, which he described as closer to Angilican latitudinarianism, which system was orthodox, but minimialistic, emphasizing practice over creed while comfortable with the use of reason. It's a thick book.

As for reviews, I could not find much. But I did find this by Dr. Smith of Grove City, here.

 

[Shawn Mathis]

OK. More on the book (important if you wish to read it or not): from an Amazon review (which Bob can correct if wrong):

"Contrary to popular opinion frequently promulgated by those on the Christian Right (such as David Barton) that the vast majority of America's Founders were Evangelical Christians as well as those on the liberal Left who claim that they were mostly secularists and Deists, Mr. Frazer, utilizing extensive and thorough documentation from both public and private writings of 8 "Key Framers" (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton and Washington), proves that they were neither Christians nor secularists/Deists but were actually a hybrid of the two which Mr. Frazer refers to as "Theistic Rationalists."...It was fascinating for me to see how their religious beliefs (essentially a mixture of liberal Enlightenment thought, marginal Protestantism and Lockean political theory) influenced our Founding documents and our Republican form of government they had a significant hand in establishing."

Adams, Jefferson and Madison (as I have read about them) could certainly fit this description. I cannot comment on the others (but would not be surprised). About Washington (please see Lillback). As for their influence, it is another questions all together how much orthodox Protestant thought influenced them and the rationales and laws they promoted (see Elazar, Berman, and Witte). Even so, I think it good that more Christians know that the Founders were a mixed bag and that they should stop reading David Barton (in my humble opinion).

 

[Zach]

It sounds like an interesting read. I've done little research of my own on that time period, but I still can't help but cringe at how many Christians take David Barton at face value. Hopefully the brouhaha that followed the publishing and then withdrawal of The Jefferson Lies will lead to more Christians being more critical readers of History. This book seems to encourage that more critical approach to the Founders. Thanks for sharing, Bob.

 

[rbcbob]

Adams, Jefferson and Madison (as I have read about them) could certainly fit this description. I cannot comment on the others (but would not be surprised). About Washington (please see Lillback). As for their influence, it is another questions all together how much orthodox Protestant thought influenced them and the rationales and laws they promoted (see Elazar, Berman, and Witte). Even so, I think it good that more Christians know that the Founders were a mixed bag and that they should stop reading David Barton (in my humble opinion).

Quite right. There is a clear line from the Scottish Common Sense Philosophers such as Reid and Hutcheson, to John Witherspoon (College of New Jersey which became Princeton and was founded by New Light Presbyterians) to future president James Madison.

As to Washington Frazer noted in his Ph.D. Thesis "He seems to have studiously avoided mentioning the name of Jesus. In over 20,000 pages of Washington's writings, there is only one reference to 'Jesus Christ' and one to 'the Divine Author of our blessed religion."

Abercrombie, Washington's pastor, called him out on his steadfast refusal to partake of the Lord's Supper in the church's quarterly observation of it. Thereafter Washington absented himself from church on those days of its observation. Abercrombie, speaking later of Washington's otherwise consistent attendance of services while in office said "I cannot consider any man as a real Christian who uniformly disregards an ordinance so solemnly enjoined by the divine Author of our holy religion, and considered as a channel of grace."

There is much more. This book is a valuable resource.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Thanks for this thread, Bob. I can see that my earlier (a couple of decades back) reading and viewing of much David Barton material needs to be taken with quite a few grains of salt!