Beyond Hope?

[LarryCook]

excerpted from:

FINDING MY RELIGION
Eleanor Wasson, author of "28,000 Martinis and Counting: A Century of Learning, Living and Loving" shares her life
David Ian Miller, Special to SF Gate

Monday, August 29, 2005

Click Here for article

the set up....

Most people don't live as long as Eleanor Wasson. Even fewer of them live as well or accomplish as much.

At the age of 97, Wasson has devoted her life to social and political causes of various kinds, like setting up volunteer organizations in the United States and abroad, organizing a museum exhibit on reincarnation at the California Museum of Science and Industry in Los Angeles and fighting against the spread of nuclear weapons. She is a connector, someone who has brought together business leaders, academics, actors and activists in countless efforts over the years.

Wasson, who moved to Santa Cruz 10 years ago after living for decades in Beverly Hills with her late husband George, a longtime head of the legal department at 20th Century Fox, is still going strong. Many of her ongoing activities are rooted in deep spiritual convictions about the need to help others and take care of the Earth. She tells her story in a memoir, "28,000 Martinis and Counting: A Century of Learning, Living and Loving."

I caught up with Wasson at her gracious home in Santa Cruz, nestled on a tree-lined hill with a creek running through the back yard. I was one of a number of visitors coming by to see her that day.

and her beliefs...

How would you characterize your views on spirituality these days?

I believe in reincarnation. And I believe that we keep coming back here to live and learn. We choose our own parents and the situations in which we want to learn. And we are here to learn obedience, charity and compassion and all the golden rules -- the greatest of which is love. And we keep doing this until we've learned enough. It may be a million years. After which time we don't have to come back here anymore.

What's that belief based on?

It's based on what I learned from a spiritual teacher many years ago. He taught me that there are three fundamental laws: The first is the law of cause and effect -- what you do comes back to you.

That sounds like the law of karma.
What do you think God is?

I don't believe in God as someone sitting up there who says he lives for us. I think God is the universal power. I think it's like a triangle. God is always on top of that triangle, but still it's always a part of us. We are all a part of one another. I believe like Einstein did that everything's energy. We are all energy, and that relates to everything in the universe.

Do you believe you can communicate with that energy or interact with it?

Well, I believe in prayer. Definitely. I don't believe in sin, and I don't believe in churches, either, because I think they are so controlling. They tell you what to do, what to believe, what to pray for and to whom you should pray. And then they talk about sin, and there is no such thing as sin -- or hell, as far as I'm concerned.

But I do think there is a universal power. And I'm not sure it is the power that is answering your prayer. It might be somebody on the other side who gets your prayers and helps you. Because I do think your good friends on the other side are helping you, too.

Wow, sounds like she's got it all together....I can't find any holes here. I mean, how could I? She bases her beliefs on instruction that she received from an unnamed "spiritual teacher".

My question: Have any of you personally experienced the conversion of a person of advanced age who has spent their entire life in unbelief? If so, I would appreciate hearing their story from your perspective. I am beginning to think that when a person gets to this point God has long since turned them over to themselves and they are beyond the hope of conversion. Am I wrong?

thanks,
LC

 

[RamistThomist]

It's based on what I learned from a spiritual teacher many years ago.

In other words, my infallibility standard is "I believe what I believe because someone just as fallible (unmentioned premise) told me so."

[Edited on 8--30-05 by Draught Horse]

[Edited on 8--30-05 by Draught Horse]

 

[RamistThomist]

Sorry, I didn't answer the question.

 

[LarryCook]

Funny, I didn't see this until I just went back and it jumped out at me.

How would you characterize your views on spirituality these days?

I believe in.....
And I believe that........
I don't believe in.....
I think......
I think.......
I believe like Einstein did that......
Well, I believe...
Definitely. I don't believe in....
and I don't believe in.....
and there is no such thing as --------, as far as I'm concerned.
But I do think there is......
And I'm not sure it is........
It might be......
Because I do think.......

Psalm 14:15 The simple believes everything,
but the prudent gives thought to his steps.

2 Timothy 1:12-13 ...which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

 

[RamistThomist]

I noticed all that. Just let them keep talking and they will eventually hang themselves. If you give the unbeliever enough rope, they will eventually wrap it around their neck.

 

[LarryCook]

Jacob,

Funny thing is, you can come back at them from a carnal position, claim anything you want based on whatever you want and they'll validate it for you! Just so long as it isn't from the one, true, living God.

I learned from Whitefield today that our hearts aren't at enmity with God, they are enmity with God. Don't have to look very far to find it these days!

Larry

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by Draught Horse

It's based on what I learned from a spiritual teacher many years ago.

In other words, my infallibility standard is "I believe what I believe because someone just as fallible (unmentioned premise) told me so."

: talk about having faith.

 

[Robin]

Originally posted by LarryCook
Jacob,

Funny thing is, you can come back at them from a carnal position, claim anything you want based on whatever you want and they'll validate it for you! Just so long as it isn't from the one, true, living God.

I learned from Whitefield today that our hearts aren't at enmity with God, they are enmity with God. Don't have to look very far to find it these days!

Larry

Larry! However, I'd never lose hope for this person. We are expressly instructed to "make disciples". That would mean a fair bit of teaching and social discomfort. I would (and have done) ask someone like this HOW do they know xyz? I would not take-on responsibility to refute them...the burden of proof is on them. So, in as nice a way as possible, I'd ask "how do you know xxxx".

This happened last week with a senior person (step-mom-in-law.) She prides herself in knowing everything - and stated "they don't know who wrote the Bible" and related skeptisms. All I did was: first, listen very patiently and considerately (hard to do!); then after she was all done, I posed the question. At that point, game was a foot - the upshot, she was NOT happy that I dared oppose her - and more unhappy to hear of the load of evidences to contradict her. But all this can be a very good sign - because the human heart hates God. When the Truth hits, most times it won't be a pretty-sight. I pray that her vexation leads to repentence.

Let us never doubt the Gospel's power in the face of a hard-heart.



Robin

 

[LarryCook]

Originally posted by Robin

Let us never doubt the Gospel's power in the face of a hard-heart.



Robin

I absolutely concur with you....If it is God's will that the heart in question would be renewed. As we know, we're not looking for people with E-L-E-C-T stenciled across their forehead. So we just keep laying out the truth, at least to the extent that the circumstances allow, in love and and out of obedience. It sounds like that is what you're doing with your s-m-i-l (maybe conversion will add the "e"!).

We'll pray for her conversion.

LC

 

[rgrove]

Originally posted by LarryCookMy question: Have any of you personally experienced the conversion of a person of advanced age who has spent their entire life in unbelief? If so, I would appreciate hearing their story from your perspective. I am beginning to think that when a person gets to this point God has long since turned them over to themselves and they are beyond the hope of conversion. Am I wrong?

The closest I can speak to is my grandfather. He was a lifelong RC, but had no outward evidence of true conversion. Rituals were really important to him. We could never speak about spiritual things because I wasn't RC and that ended the conversation right there. But as he was dying his defenses started coming down little by little. The last time I spoke to him I was able to go through the gospel with him. He even repeated the verses after me. Towards the end he was quiet looking straight ahead and I asked him what he was thinking of. He said "Heaven". I said that was a good thing to be thinking about and asked him what he felt about it. He said that he felt like he was on the outside looking in. Possibly the worst words I've ever heard in my life. I went through the gospel again and urged him to trust in Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins, but he never made the step while I was there. That was on Sunday evening. He died later that week. I had hoped to see him again, but I won't know his end until mine comes as well. Was he beyond hope? Don't know, but I know I'm still responsible to stand in front of people and make them climb over me before they jump off the cliff into everlasting darkness and that's what I'll continue to faithfully do when the opportunity arises Lord willing.

Yours in Christ,
Ron

 

[VictorBravo]

Larry,

This sounds very much like my mother and sister. It grieves me.

My mother was raised a Lutheran; her father was a pastor. She taught me to pray rote prayers and held a sort of magical faith. Now, in her 70s, she is a full blown new-ager. She doesn't believe in sin and believes that God is in everything. She plays with crystals and has had life readings (reincarnation reviews) done for all of her children.

She is such a sweet person, but hard in her heart. At the end of a dinner one night, when asked why she believed what she did, she said "I know it in my heart."

The next question was blunt: "How do you know that what is in your heart is not evil?"

The gathering ended abruptly. My sister said, "That ruins a nice dinner." We now hardly speak at all, except for things like the garden and the weather.

But they know I pray for them every day.

Vic

 

[rgrove]

It's a dreadful thing to have to try and share the gospel in the family. Especially with a parent. My father and brother are completely lost and have no hope of salvation if they died right now. Conversation with them hasn't helped yet. I was able to get my brother to come to church when we had a visiting preacher who was doing a gospel presentation (thief on the cross) and it was to no effect. Slept through most of it... Conversation afterward he told me he was good with God and had no worries. He's a recovering heroin addict and alcaholic and has had too much of the "spiritual" kind of treatment centers. He was most impressed with American Indians in a prayer meeting with them than anything else to date. Even had a prayer to "The Great Spirit" or somesuch above his bed for a while. Mom is a nominal RC. Conversation is always pretty tense when these things come up. But I won't consider them "beyond hope" until they draw their last breaths denying Christ all the way to the end.