biblical seperation...when is the time?

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satz

Puritan Board Senior
when is it right to apply the principles of biblical seperation to fellow believers? What kind of errors in doctrine are you willing to tolerate and still treat them as brothers and sisters?

what do you think of these issues specifically?

1. do not follow regulative principle
2. do not keep sabbath ( believe it was 'nailed to the cross')
3. arminian
4. allow female pastors
5. using grape juice in the Supper (for those of the wine only persuasion)

thoughts?
 
I'd say 2,3,4 as well, but 1 is rather touch and go - for me it really would depend on how far (in my opinion) a church violated the principle. Not that I'd accept that such a violation was right, but that I would always avoid unneccessary schism.

JH
 
colleen, just to clarify...do you mean you would or would not tolerate 2,3,4

soz!
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
would not
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I am guessing that you object to the Sabbath one because of the reason (it was 'nailed to the cross'.) A question for you and others - not hypothetical.

We have a dear friend whom it pleased God to bring to saving faith partly through the witness of our lives as one of the means He uses. He is now a member of our congregation.

But he is a manager at a restaurant and working Sunday is part of his job. He is permitted to come in to work about noon - 12:30 P.M. which has caused him some grief with some of the other managers.

I don't believe you are saying we shouldn't be good friends with him any more (but then again, maybe you are.) Comments are welcome.
 
No, I am not saying you shouldn't be friends with him.

Yes, if the issue of the Sabbath is handled that flippantly, THEN there is an issue, which is why I noted it.

My hubby occasionally has to work a Sunday or lose his job. Most of the time (because of his senority and work ethic) he can trade it for OT during the week or a Saturday (they would be splitting his shift for weekend mandatory OT, half work sunday/half work saturday). They have gotton used to hiim now and like him enough (also having been informed that due to the neccessity of his participation in the church) they automatically put him on Saturdays now.

A friend of ours is a manager of a restaurant also and has to work most sundays. They go to church in the morn and then rush out so he can get to work that afternoon. Sometimes it's a fact of life. The thing is, to try to work around it as much as possible and if possible make up for it during the week (ie small group, wed night study, etc)...I know my hubby doesn't make it without church and fellowship.

[Edited on 23-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
 
'k. That's what I thought you meant. And our friend does fellowship during the week with us and others, as well as one of the church groups that he can make it to.
 
good! And tell him not to worry about those other managers...unfortunately, they are part of the job:D
 
A friend of ours is a manager of a restaurant also and has to work most sundays. They go to church in the morn and then rush out so he can get to work that afternoon. Sometimes it's a fact of life.
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Here's the fact of life:

Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God does not grade on a curve. The command is to rest.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
 
Scott,

I am afraid. Very afraid.

So are you saying he should leave his job and go somewhere else? Do we as Christians leave certain jobs to only the unsaved?

If I were in a hospital on Sunday due to an extended stay I would think it a good thing that a Christian doctor or nurse was looking after me. Granted, these are considered works of mercy, but I have also seen the idea promoted here on the PB that Christians should try to not work on Sunday even in this setting.

I have followed many similar threads here on the PB and I can see where this one could lead and I have no desire to do that. But God's word is black and white and I am so gray. Help me out, please.
 
Originally posted by gwine
Scott,

I am afraid. Very afraid.

So are you saying he should leave his job and go somewhere else? Do we as Christians leave certain jobs to only the unsaved?

If I were in a hospital on Sunday due to an extended stay I would think it a good thing that a Christian doctor or nurse was looking after me. Granted, these are considered works of mercy, but I have also seen the idea promoted here on the PB that Christians should try to not work on Sunday even in this setting.

I have followed many similar threads here on the PB and I can see where this one could lead and I have no desire to do that. But God's word is black and white and I am so gray. Help me out, please.
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Please meditate on the previous passage of hebrews presented.

WCF Ch 21

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him: k) which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,(l) which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,(m) and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.(n)

(k) Exod. 20:8, 10, 11; Isa. 56:2, 4, 6, 7.
(l) Gen. 2:2, 3; I Cor. 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7.
(m) Rev. 1:10.
(n) Exod. 20:8, 10, with Matt. 5:17, 18.

VIII. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations,(o) but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.(p)

(o) Exod. 20:8; Exod. 16:23, 25, 26, 29, 30; Exod. 31:15, 16, 17; Isa. 58:13; Neh. 13:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22.
(p) Isa. 58:13; Matt. 12:1 to 13.

Acts of mercy are considered to be ok for the Christian on the Lords day. However, I do agree that if the believer can have the day off, he should endeavor for that else how could he gather with Gods people for worship and the supper if he's never there?

Christians do not leave certain jobs to 'only the unsaved'. We do however leave breaking the sabbath with the unregenerate. If it means leaving the job, we should do so. The church and our leadership should prepare for the drought. Preparation should be made, i.e look for a new job, seek councel; financial as well as spiritual, etc.

Kep in mind, I am a nurse by profession. If I had to work on the Lords day because the job required it, I could with good conscience. However, up front, I don't know that I would ever take a nursing job that required me to work on the Lords day............



[Edited on 1-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
The thing of it is, Scott...if the gentleman in question applied for the job AFTER he had become a Christian, then he could state right off the bat that he can't, due to religious convictions, work on Sundays. But, unfortunately, that is not the case...so now he has to PROVE himself and his change to these ppl first otherwise they will say that he is just claiming it so he can have Sundays off.
In my hubby's case it was typically a matter of contract. The union makes a contract, dh has no say, it's work or fired (at the moment though it is not union...probably why they are willing to work with him). And in our case with a large family to provide for, no "higher" educational degree, and these labor jobs leaving the country right and left...he is extremely fortunate to even have a job. And most churches, including PCA, won't buy "well, I had to quit/I got fired because I wouldn't work Sundays. But now I don't have a way of feeding my family"
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
The thing of it is, Scott...if the gentleman in question applied for the job AFTER he had become a Christian, then he could state right off the bat that he can't, due to religious convictions, work on Sundays. But, unfortunately, that is not the case...so now he has to PROVE himself and his change to these ppl first otherwise they will say that he is just claiming it so he can have Sundays off.
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The gentleman doesn't have to worry about 'these ppl', He does have to worry about what God commands however.

In my hubby's case it was typically a matter of contract. The union makes a contract, dh has no say, it's work or fired (at the moment though it is not union...probably why they are willing to work with him). And in our case with a large family to provide for, no "higher" educational degree, and these labor jobs leaving the country right and left...he is extremely fortunate to even have a job. And most churches, including PCA, won't buy "well, I had to quit/I got fired because I wouldn't work Sundays. But now I don't have a way of feeding my family"
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What would his eldership suggest?
 
That he continue working (I believe that would be the position of both the eldership at our Bible church as well as the eldership at the PCA we attend on Wed nights)
 
We do however leave breaking the sabbath with the unregenerate.
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Are you saying that we as Christians should be doing what we can to make sure we keep the Lord's Day holy while adding condemnation to the unbelievers? If true then what does that say to them about our Christian witness? Perhaps you would answer that it shows them how serious we are about our faith. I wonder if they would buy that reasoning.

If it means leaving the job, we should do so. The church and our leadership should prepare for the drought.
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In light of Colleen's comments I can only but wonder that if people would leave their jobs how much the church would be able to help considering the small size of many churches and their ability to support those in need. If a church can't afford to give their pastor a living wage, then how can they help others?

And please, please don't think that I am encouraging the idea that we should all feel free to work on the Lord's Day as we see fit. I have read your comments and your Scripture references and the WCF references. Maybe what I am doing (perhaps wrongly) is seeing the word necessity in the WCF as including that which is done so that we don't become a burden to others.

But, I am open to your take on this. And you can split the thread if you think I have wandered too far from the original questions.
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
That he continue working (I believe that would be the position of both the eldership at our Bible church as well as the eldership at the PCA we attend on Wed nights)
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Colleen,
Are you and your husband a member at either of these churches?
 
Are you saying that we as Christians should be doing what we can to make sure we keep the Lord's Day holy while adding condemnation to the unbelievers? If true then what does that say to them about our Christian witness? Perhaps you would answer that it shows them how serious we are about our faith. I wonder if they would buy that reasoning.
Click to expand...

Adding condemnation to the unregenerate is not the issue. Here is our witness: God commands, so it is done.

In light of Colleen's comments I can only but wonder that if people would leave their jobs how much the church would be able to help considering the small size of many churches and their ability to support those in need. If a church can't afford to give their pastor a living wage, then how can they help others?
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The church and it's people shoud be ponying up instead of buying a new TV, car or building.................The church has lost sight of this principle.


And please, please don't think that I am encouraging the idea that we should all feel free to work on the Lord's Day as we see fit. I have read your comments and your Scripture references and the WCF references. Maybe what I am doing (perhaps wrongly) is seeing the word necessity in the WCF as including that which is done so that we don't become a burden to others.
Click to expand...

Neccesity:

"Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? "

This is an accurate description of necessity. Your car breaks down. You need to fix it before Monday, have at it on the sabbath.

[Edited on 1-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
Your car breaks down. You need to fix it before Monday, have at it on the sabbath.
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There is no way I could ever fix my car, although I do know which end of a hammer I should hold. :D

But seriously, who will fix it? Should I have my unregenerate auto shop owner, or Sears, since Christians should not?

And I do agree that the church and it's people should be ponying up - and I do my part. But God has been pleased despite me to give me the means to do so. People on pensions would not be able to so easily.
 
We are members of the Bible church. It is a small church. Most do not have more than what is neccessary. Ppl in our congregation have sold things and given when there is a need to be met. But the church is not out to get a bigger building (we don't even have what most would consider a "normal church building"), we don't even have pews.

I think the rationale can be taken to an extreme. All should be done to NOT work on Sundays...however there are times (hospitals, livestock, those on call, and those under contracts with limited job skills or other employment to find)
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
We are members of the Bible church. It is a small church. Most do not have more than what is neccessary. Ppl in our congregation have sold things and given when there is a need to be met. But the church is not out to get a bigger building (we don't even have what most would consider a "normal church building"), we don't even have pews.

I think the rationale can be taken to an extreme. All should be done to NOT work on Sundays...however there are times (hospitals, livestock, those on call, and those under contracts with limited job skills or other employment to find)
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The rationale cannot be taken to the extreme. Either men depend upon God for their sustanence or they don't. God commands that men rest from their work on the sabbath day.
Do not quit your present job, but endeavor to fulfill that which God commands by seeking employment that will honor Gods commands.
 
Originally posted by gwine
Your car breaks down. You need to fix it before Monday, have at it on the sabbath.
Click to expand...

There is no way I could ever fix my car, although I do know which end of a hammer I should hold. :D

But seriously, who will fix it? Should I have my unregenerate auto shop owner, or Sears, since Christians should not?

And I do agree that the church and it's people should be ponying up - and I do my part. But God has been pleased despite me to give me the means to do so. People on pensions would not be able to so easily.
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I did not say that Christians should not. I said that you should fix it if it was a necessity so that you might be able to get to work Monday morning. If you are unable, i.e. you are not mechanically inclined, then another Christian or whomever can. This can be seen as an act of mercy towards you...........it is not like you are calling either one to forsake Gods command routinely.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Do not quit your present job, but endeavor to fulfill that which God commands by seeking employment that will honor Gods commands.
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Agreed! And at the moment...dh's job makes leniencies for him.

And I do think this other manager should try to get sundays off or look for another position...but until then...he WILL have to make do...
 
For those willing to split over the "sabbath", are you willing to make concessions? Say a Saturday sabbath vs. a Sunday sabbath, or does it have to be Sunday?

Thanks,
openairboy
 
5
Because I dont like grape juice:D

But seriously I would say 3,4 with conditional 1,2. (based on type and degree of violation)
 
ok...thanks for the thoughts and replies folks!

for those who answered what is the degree of seperation you would impose?

both at church and at personal level?
 
Mark, you will have to explain those degrees as it's not clear. Are talking about not worshipping with vs shunning?
 
Colleen,

Well, i was trying to find out what everyone meant, i am not sure myslf but i guess it would range in extremes from just refusing to worship with them in their churches to giving them the 1 Cor 5 treatment and not even eating with them.

So where in between do you think we should go?
 
Keith, personally...I struggled with the sabbath (sat vs sun) a few years ago. Here is my conclusion...in literal translational studies, as well as historical church history...it is Saturday (where is that can of worms when I need it?)...however...

The principle mentioned is A day of rest one day a week. That day would be most beneficial if spent in fellowship and in the house of the Lord in worship. Most of that happens on Sunday. I personally feel it to be a shame that it was changed due to attempts to "not be like the Jews".

Feel free to research it...but I do not think it is dogmatically held to be one day or the other by scripture other than in tradition. I feel it would have been more beneficial to us (ie has cause more divisions since) if we had just stayed with the traditional Sabbath.

Okay...now that I opened the can for you...(look out!)
 
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