biblical seperation...when is the time?

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Prove to me that the sabbath was Saturday?

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

"The seventh day". No Saturday or Sunday here.

Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

None here either..........

The mandate is one day in seven, rest. God established Israel in that they rested the seventh day. In Christ, He (God) changed it to the first day of the week; The Lords day.
 
LadyFlynt,

I too struggle with this question of Saturday or Sunday. For many years I was strictly a Saturday person. I have read many books and papers (both old and new, from both the Saturday and Sunday perspective) on this topic and find all of them lacking consistency in their hermeneutic approach.

Scott,

Granted the Bible never says Saturday or Sunday. However, it does say the 7th day and as far as I remember, most historians say that the day we call Saturday was and is known as the 7th day of the week.

Jim
 
Jim,
Here the idea: God rested on the creationary seventh day. The days did not have names. The point is, in this, God establishes the cycle of seven days. In this cycle, God rested from His work, as we are told to do, on the seventh day of the cycle. Whatever way you slice it, Gods cycle began and ended on the 7th day. The NT churchs' cycle begins and ends on the 7th day (now called the Lords Day). :scholar:

By the way, 5 boxes of Opus are on the way as soon as they pay me from the lottery I won.:banana:

[Edited on 1-24-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Prove to me that the sabbath was Saturday?

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

"The seventh day". No Saturday or Sunday here.

Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

None here either..........

The mandate is one day in seven, rest. God established Israel in that they rested the seventh day. In Christ, He (God) changed it to the first day of the week; The Lords day.

So you think the "the seventh day" was just an abstract term meaning one in seven? Exodus 16.26 says, "Six days ye shall gather it [bread]; but on the seventh day [Saturday on the Jewish calendar], which IS the sabbath..."

The fact that people were being stoned for doing work on THE Sabbath suggests it wasn't relative from Jew to Jew, i.e. it was clearly identifiable if someone was doing work on a particular day. As well as the Jews seeking to blame Jesus for breaking the Sabbath, which an easy rebut would've been, "Oh, I keep it on Wednesday."

Anyway, I could careless to debate the issue, but I was more curious if the sabbath splitlers were concerned with a particular day.

openairboy
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Jim,
Here the idea: God rested on the creationary seventh day. The days did not have names. The point is, in this, God establishes the cycle of seven days. In this cycle, God rested from His work, as we are told to do, on the seventh day of the cycle. Whatever way you slice it, Gods cycle began and ended on the 7th day. The NT churchs' cycle begins and ends on the 7th day (now called the Lords Day). :scholar:

[Edited on 1-24-2005 by Scott Bushey]

OK.. I now know where you are coming from. However, the issue is how one goes about establishing NT evidence that the cycle begins and ends on the "Lord's Day". Again, in my opinion both sides are a bit inconsistent.

I think when I get those 5 boxes of OPUS' and light those babies up, then my mind will be better apt to handle this Sabbath question :bigsmile:

Jim
 
So you think the "the seventh day" was just an abstract term meaning one in seven? Exodus 16.26 says, "Six days ye shall gather it [bread]; but on the seventh day [Saturday on the Jewish calendar], which IS the sabbath..."

God had no calendar. The mandate does not date to Sinai; it is creationary. It dates back to creation. Israel adopted the one in seven concept. It turns out that the 7th day was their sabbath.

The fact that people were being stoned for doing work on THE Sabbath suggests it wasn't relative from Jew to Jew,

You mean it wasn't a personal preference from Jew to Jew, don't you?


i.e. it was clearly identifiable if someone was doing work on a particular day.

Yes; The Jewish sabbath was the 7th day. No conflict there.


As well as the Jews seeking to blame Jesus for breaking the Sabbath, which an easy rebut would've been, "Oh, I keep it on Wednesday."


You have misunderstood me. Israel kept the 7th day (as a group), the NT church keeps the Lords day as sabbath; implemented by Christ. I do not embrace this silly notion where one can keep whatever day as the sabbath.



[Edited on 1-24-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by JWJ
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Jim,
Here the idea: God rested on the creationary seventh day. The days did not have names. The point is, in this, God establishes the cycle of seven days. In this cycle, God rested from His work, as we are told to do, on the seventh day of the cycle. Whatever way you slice it, Gods cycle began and ended on the 7th day. The NT churchs' cycle begins and ends on the 7th day (now called the Lords Day). :scholar:

[Edited on 1-24-2005 by Scott Bushey]

OK.. I now know where you are coming from. However, the issue is how one goes about establishing NT evidence that the cycle begins and ends on the "Lord's Day". Again, in my opinion both sides are a bit inconsistent.

I think when I get those 5 boxes of OPUS' and light those babies up, then my mind will be better apt to handle this Sabbath question :bigsmile:

Jim

Jim,
Christ Himself changed it from the 7th day to the Lords day; it is evidenced in that the church met on the Lords day. The jews continued to meet on the 7th day (as you see the apostles visiting the temple to preach on the sabbath), however, the church met on the Lords day. A comparative transition would be circumcision to baptism as the sign.
 
Actually Scott it is historical that the early church worshipped on Saturday. It was later changed to Sunday, but even then in only certain parts of the world. Even in my part of America here...the catholic in the rural area meet on Saturday. I will have more to post on this later as I can't tie up the phone line this morning.

PS...I KNEW that Scott would be the first to have at those worms!
 
Actually Scott it is historical that the early church worshipped on Saturday. It was later changed to Sunday, but even then in only certain parts of the world. Even in my part of America here...the catholic in the rural area meet on Saturday.


Colleen,
As time allows, please provide me with the material.

For your edification:


Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"--and that he had said these things to her.
Joh 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
Joh 20:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord

1Co 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.


Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Actually Scott it is historical that the early church worshipped on Saturday. It was later changed to Sunday, but even then in only certain parts of the world. Even in my part of America here...the catholic in the rural area meet on Saturday. I will have more to post on this later as I can't tie up the phone line this morning.

I don't know about the early church...I'd like to see documentation of that.

As far as the RCC, I think that is a relatively recent development. They do it so those members who don't want to get up on Sunday morning don't have to. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath.
 
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.34 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas; who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next Sabbath-day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."35

These texts show, 1. That by the term Sabbath in the book of Acts is meant that day on which the Jewish people assembled in the synagogue to listen to the voices of the prophets; 2. That as this discourse was fourteen years after the resurrection of Christ, and the record of it by Luke was some thirty years after that event, hence it follows that the alleged change of the Sabbath at the resurrection of Christ had not, even after many years, come to the knowledge of either Luke or Paul; 3. That here was a remarkable opportunity to mention the change of the Sabbath, were it true that the Sabbath had been changed in honor of Christ's resurrection; for when Paul was asked to preach the same words the next Sabbath, he might have answered that the following day was now the proper day for divine worship; and Luke, in placing this incident upon record, could not well avoid the mention of this new day, had it been true that another day had become the Sabbath of the Lord; 4. That as this second meeting pertained almost wholly to Gentiles; it cannot be said in this case that Paul preached upon the Sabbath out of regard to the Jews; on the contrary, the narrative strongly indicates Paul's regard for the Sabbath as the proper day for divine worship; 5. Nor can it be denied that the Sabbath was well understood by the Gentiles in this city, and that they had some degree of regard for it, a fact which will be corroborated by other texts.

Several years after these things, the apostles assembled at Jerusalem to consider the question of circumcision.36 "Certain men which came down from Judea." Finding the Gentiles uncircumcised, had "taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses ye cannot be saved." Had they found the Gentiles neglecting the Sabbath, unquestionably this would have first called out their rebuke. It is indeed worthy of notice that no dispute at this time existed in the church relative to the observance of the Sabbath; for none was brought before this apostolic assembly. Yet had it been true that the change of the Sabbath was then advocated, or that Paul had taught the Gentiles to neglect the Sabbath, without doubt those who brought up the question of circumcision would have urged that of the Sabbath with even greater earnestness. That the law of Moses, the observance of which was under discussion in this assembly, is not the ten commandments, is evident from several decisive facts: 1. Because Peter calls the code under consideration a yoke which neither their fathers nor themselves were able to bear; whereas James expressly calls the royal law, which, on his own showing, embodies the ten commandments, a law of liberty; 2. Because this assembly did decide against the authority of the law of Moses; and yet James, who was a member of this body, some years afterward solemnly enjoined obedience to the commandments, affirming that he who violated one was guilty of all;37

History of the Sabbath
By J.N. Andrews


"And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James and Salome, BOUGHT spices that they might come and annoint Him" Mark 16:1
Scott, this was Saturday evening which would be considered Sunday the first day of the week AFTER Sabbath. They couldn't and wouldn't buy on the Sabbath. They were recognizing the Saturday Sabbath.

Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

This would have been AFTER they all had participated in Sabbath assembly...He arrived in the evening, breaking bread was an evening event, therefore, yes this was Saturday night, considered to be the start of Sunday. He would not have started his travel at night and He didn't travel during the Sabbath.
 
I posted under lawful calls which combines to this statement...as Constantine was also the one who instituted the first Sunday law...though there were many churches outside of Rome that still held the Saturday Sabbath for centuries and was in fact a debate within the Catholic Church in various areas even through the 1500's
 
Constantine?


Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"--and that he had said these things to her.
Joh 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
Joh 20:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord
 
Fred, I'm sorry but those appearances don't prove a change to Sunday position...if anything it reitterates what the sabbath holders say...that his time in the tomb was also a "rest"...his body was laid to rest and it rested during that time. The "work" of the resurrection was on the first day. If anything this demonstrates resting on the sabbath. And if you want to say well it was three days he rested...yes he was laid to rest Wed evening(beginning of Thursday which was a high Sabbath that day due to passover) and continued till the end of the Sabbath Saturday evening,
 
Fred and Andrew...I am printing out both articles so that I may look over them in-depth this afternoon. Thank you.
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
I posted under lawful calls which combines to this statement...as Constantine was also the one who instituted the first Sunday law...though there were many churches outside of Rome that still held the Saturday Sabbath for centuries and was in fact a debate within the Catholic Church in various areas even through the 1500's

Ok, it would make sense that the first law (i.e. a givernment function) was instituted by Constantine, since the Church is not a governmental institution. But that does not speak at all to the issue. It is a classic non sequitor.

Please provide some historical evidence of these claims. This is simply ipse dixit. Were you aware that Rome holds the Mass on all 7 days of the week, even today?
 
NORWAY (Church Council held at Bergen, Norway, August 22, 1435)
"The first matter concerned a keeping holy of Saturday. It had come to the earth of the archbishop that people in different places of the kingdom had ventured the keeping holy of Saturday. It is strictly forbidden--it is stated--in the Church-Law, for any one to keep or to adopt holy-days, outside of those which the pope, archbishop, or bishops appoint." ("The History of the Norwegian Church Under Catholicism" R.Keyser, Vol II, p 488. Oslo:1858)

NORWAY, 1435 (Catholic Provincial Council at Bergen)
"We are informed that some people in different districts of the kingdom, have adoptd and observed Saturday-keeping. It is severely forbidden--in holy church canon--one and all to observe days excepting those which the Holy Pope, archbishop, or the bishops command. SAturday-keeping must under no circumstances be permitted hereafter further than the chrch canon commands. Therefore, we counsel all the friends of God throughout all Noreway who want to be obedient towards the holy church to let this evil of Saturday-keeping alone; and the rest we forbid under penalty of severe church punishment to keep Saturday holy." (Dip. Norveg., 7, 397)

FRANCE--Waldenses
"Louis XII, King of France (1498-1515), being informed by the enemies of the Waldenses, inhabiting a part of the province of Province, that several heinous crimes were laid to their account, sent the Master of Requests, and a vertain doctor of the Sorbonne to make inquiry into this matter. On their return they reported that they had visited all the parishes, but could not discover any traces of those crimes with which they were charged. On the contrary, they kept the Sabbath day, obseved the ordinance of baptism, according to the primitive church, instructed their children in the articles of the Christian faith, and the commandments of God. The King having heard the report of this commissioners, said with an oath that they were better men than himself or his people." ("History of the Christian Church," Vol II, pp. 71, 72, third edition. London: 1818)

(my note!...saturday...this is historically known of the Waldenses. Notice that it was acknowledged that they were following after the primitive church.)

WALDENSES
"That we are to worship on only God, who is able to help us, and not the Saints departed; that we ought to keep holy the Sabbath day." ("Luther's Fore-runners," p38

NORWAY
"Then, too, in the "Catechism" that was used during the fourteenth century, the Sabbath commandment read thus: 'Thous shalt not forget to keep the seventh day.'" (This is quoted from "Documents and Studies Concerning the History of the Lutheran Catechism in the Nordish Churches," p. 89. Christiania: 1893

NORWAY
"Also the priests have caused the people to keep Saturdays as Sundays," ("Theological Periodicals for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Norway," Vol I, p. 184. Oslo)

I had a whole book of these going back to the Apostolic age...unfortunately it is a zeroxed copy and I can only find the misplaced page 20-21 on the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries.

[Edited on 25-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
 
Fred, I read over the emails between R. Bacon and the SDA and if I were them I would remove it from the website. Here is my reason. Leave off the title, remove the petty back and forth about evolutionary reasoning, and if these two men were trying to convince me, I would have to sadly say the SDA was the one to do it. Bacon relied sorely upon something similar to numerological bible coding and presumptions.

I also read Hodges...unfortunately he starts on a premise that I don't fully agree with and neither do some other Christians. (more on this later as I left the papers downstairs)
 
Colleen,
There has always been schismatics whom have evaded Gods sabbath, i.e. the Lords day, for Saturday worship for whatever personal reasons. Look at the church today; how many congregations have Saturday (sic) worship services? It's like fried chicken, if you serve it, they will come.

but could not discover any traces of those crimes with which they were charged. On the contrary, they kept the Sabbath day, obseved the ordinance of baptism, according to the primitive church, instructed their children in the articles of the Christian faith, and the commandments of God

Is the above quoted correctly? I removed the parenthesis; was that yours?

[Edited on 1-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
no that was part of what I was quoting. I will move my note to appear after the quote.

Also, in Norway it wasn't a schism...this was within the Catholic Church. Also in this book somewhere (if I could find the rest of it!) it is noted a certain bishop when traveling east would worship on Saturday as the parishes there did and on Sunday in his own neck of the woods...and his comment was "when in Rome...."

[Edited on 25-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
 
Colleen,
I will address all the citings singularly.


NORWAY (Church Council held at Bergen, Norway, August 22, 1435)
"The first matter concerned a keeping holy of Saturday. It had come to the earth of the archbishop that people in different places of the kingdom had ventured the keeping holy of Saturday. It is strictly forbidden--it is stated--in the Church-Law, for any one to keep or to adopt holy-days, outside of those which the pope, archbishop, or bishops appoint." ("The History of the Norwegian Church Under Catholicism" R.Keyser, Vol II, p 488. Oslo:1858)

It looks to me as if a schismatic group, outside of the rule of Rome was worshipping erroneously on Saturday. It is strictly forbidden



NORWAY, 1435 (Catholic Provincial Council at Bergen)
"We are informed that some people in different districts of the kingdom, have adoptd and observed Saturday-keeping. It is severely forbidden--in holy church canon--one and all to observe days excepting those which the Holy Pope, archbishop, or the bishops command. SAturday-keeping must under no circumstances be permitted hereafter further than the chrch canon commands. Therefore, we counsel all the friends of God throughout all Noreway who want to be obedient towards the holy church to let this evil of Saturday-keeping alone; and the rest we forbid under penalty of severe church punishment to keep Saturday holy." (Dip. Norveg., 7, 397)

It is severely forbidden

FRANCE--Waldenses
"Louis XII, King of France (1498-1515), being informed by the enemies of the Waldenses, inhabiting a part of the province of Province, that several heinous crimes were laid to their account, sent the Master of Requests, and a vertain doctor of the Sorbonne to make inquiry into this matter. On their return they reported that they had visited all the parishes, but could not discover any traces of those crimes with which they were charged. On the contrary, they kept the Sabbath day, obseved the ordinance of baptism, according to the primitive church, instructed their children in the articles of the Christian faith, and the commandments of God. The King having heard the report of this commissioners, said with an oath that they were better men than himself or his people." ("History of the Christian Church," Vol II, pp. 71, 72, third edition. London: 1818)

(my note!...saturday...this is historically known of the Waldenses. Notice that it was acknowledged that they were following after the primitive church.)

I don't see anything wrong w/ the above.

WALDENSES
"That we are to worship on only God, who is able to help us, and not the Saints departed; that we ought to keep holy the Sabbath day." ("Luther's Fore-runners," p38

How do you know that they were'nt speaking of the sabbath as I do?

NORWAY
"Then, too, in the "Catechism" that was used during the fourteenth century, the Sabbath commandment read thus: 'Thous shalt not forget to keep the seventh day.'" (This is quoted from "Documents and Studies Concerning the History of the Lutheran Catechism in the Nordish Churches," p. 89. Christiania: 1893

I don't agree with that.......

NORWAY
"Also the priests have caused the people to keep Saturdays as Sundays," ("Theological Periodicals for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Norway," Vol I, p. 184. Oslo)

Interesting.
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
no that was part of what I was quoting. I will move my note to appear after the quote.

Also, in Norway it wasn't a schism...this was within the Catholic Church. Also in this book somewhere (if I could find the rest of it!) it is noted a certain bishop when traveling east would worship on Saturday as the parishes there did and on Sunday in his own neck of the woods...and his comment was "when in Rome...."

[Edited on 25-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]

Ok; they were in the RCC but were factions. Better? Obviously they were not yet dealt with........
 
Scott, actually that last quote came before the others on Norway and was dealing with the catholic church in Norway.

The Waldenses were known Sabbath (Saturday) keepers as my note in the quote between the two about them states. They also would not eat of an animal that had not been bled before it died. Some of them were non-resistant. (Thus how I got to study about them as the anabaptist hold them in high regard...yet...lol...I came to find out--and most anabaptists have NO CLUE-- that they were considered "reformed" in their theology, they were electionists!)
 
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