biblical seperation...when is the time?
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Can you back this up? Convince me...........
JohnV
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
None of the above. It would have to be about the Word, nothing else. They would have to be heretical and apostate, deliberately.
On matters of doctrine on any of these points, it would have to be that they abrogate their own regulations, not mine. On many things there are differences of convictions. It would have to be that mine are the ones on trial, since the definition of heresy is being of a different persuasion than the group. In the same way, the church itself can be of a different persuasion than the historical church, or even its own historical constitution. So one would have to prove this latter point. But it would be in order to facilitate a repentance and return, not to accuse and condemn. Then if a church persists, and it snubs the witness of the clear testimony of the Word and her own creeds and constitution, then one's own faith must be put on trial before that church, so that the witness of the faithful can also be counted.
It is not when a church sins that counts, it is when a church ignores the witness of the Word and of the faithful. In rejecting the Word they are rejecting Christ, and in rejecting the witness of the faithful they are rejecting Christ.
So it is not a matter of me separating from that church, but of them separating from the Word, from their own original convictions, and from me. The right way out of an apostacizing church is ignominiously.
I am so tempted to respond to these comments. However, I promised myself when I joined this forum that I would refrain from getting too involved in the Sabbath question. I have come to the point in my life that this question is not really important, comparatively speaking that is.
Allow me just to say that Colleen is right. There is evidence (historical) that the early church kept the 7th day through the 3rd century-- actually many kept both days! However, historical evidence at best is only "ad hominem" evidence. Secondly, and again, the common Scriptures used to support the first day are very weak. One can use the same logic to support the 7th day.
Jim
Allow me just to say that Colleen is right. There is evidence (historical) that the early church kept the 7th day through the 3rd century-- actually many kept both days! However, historical evidence at best is only "ad hominem" evidence. Secondly, and again, the common Scriptures used to support the first day are very weak. One can use the same logic to support the 7th day.
Jim
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
WCF Ch 21
VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him: k) which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,(l) which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,(m) and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.(n)
Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
Act 20:8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"--and that he had said these things to her.
Joh 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
Jim,
With all due respect, the scriptures say that the apostles met on the first day of the week to break bread. They also tell us that the apostles and brethren 'put aside in store' their offerings, which they also made on the first day of the week. Am I missing something?
[Edited on 1-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]
VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him: k) which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,(l) which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,(m) and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.(n)
Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
Act 20:8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"--and that he had said these things to her.
Joh 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
Jim,
With all due respect, the scriptures say that the apostles met on the first day of the week to break bread. They also tell us that the apostles and brethren 'put aside in store' their offerings, which they also made on the first day of the week. Am I missing something?
[Edited on 1-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Again, Scott...they would meet AFTER the Sabbath was over (many when to synagogue on the Sabbath even as Christians)...that evening was Saturday night, the evening of the first day. They counted time from dusk to dusk...not dawn to dawn. They may have gathered, but AFTER they had recognized the Sabbath (Saturday).
And Jim is right...It is historical, but always debated. The WCF came MUCH later and is not accurate in this point to quote from...rather an opinion I think to make their point. THough I am willing to accept it's insistance upon a Sunday Sabbath, I don't agree with it's claiming historacity in the early church except by their observance that Christ came to them after the sabbath. And, yes, many even kept BOTH days (kinda how we get "weekend") Saturday as a day of rest and Sunday as a day of special observance. I also had to come to the point of either being dogmatic on Saturday or agree that we just settle on A day.
And Jim is right...It is historical, but always debated. The WCF came MUCH later and is not accurate in this point to quote from...rather an opinion I think to make their point. THough I am willing to accept it's insistance upon a Sunday Sabbath, I don't agree with it's claiming historacity in the early church except by their observance that Christ came to them after the sabbath. And, yes, many even kept BOTH days (kinda how we get "weekend") Saturday as a day of rest and Sunday as a day of special observance. I also had to come to the point of either being dogmatic on Saturday or agree that we just settle on A day.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
So, the seventh day adventists are correct?
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
not in their theology, NO!
I am saying...as a common lay-person, if I were one seeking out a dogmatic position upon days (which I have previously)...looking at the debate between the two...the SDA man made a better case, his was more common sense...not a (7*3)+1 dealy. In fact going by that chart the pattern gets interrupted with no explaination. In essence, Bacon defeated himself and made himself look silly...In my humble opinion
If he has better discourses, then they need to use those and remove THAT one! Or else they might actually convince someone against their own position. Constructive criticism only! (Like a kid standing up with a paper to convince his classmates of something, but by the end the teacher has to say "sorry but you've actually convinced me to take the other position)
I am saying...as a common lay-person, if I were one seeking out a dogmatic position upon days (which I have previously)...looking at the debate between the two...the SDA man made a better case, his was more common sense...not a (7*3)+1 dealy. In fact going by that chart the pattern gets interrupted with no explaination. In essence, Bacon defeated himself and made himself look silly...In my humble opinion
If he has better discourses, then they need to use those and remove THAT one! Or else they might actually convince someone against their own position. Constructive criticism only! (Like a kid standing up with a paper to convince his classmates of something, but by the end the teacher has to say "sorry but you've actually convinced me to take the other position)
lionovjudah
Puritan Board Freshman
Their issue of keeping the Sabbath is the least of their error.
hahahahahaha
In fact it may be correct. Either way, Does nto Paul address this issue in Romans when rebuking those who were legalistic about days and worship and eating?
Joe
JohnV
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The problem is that if it doesn't matter whether its Saturday or Sunday, then Sunday is to be preferred, because it is the Lord's Day, the day of the Resurrection. So a "doesn't matter" argument favours a Sunday observance. I can take it further to show that it necessitates a Sunday obeservance, but this is sufficient, I would think. The point is, to differ with a tradition that can be traced back to the Apotles requires a dogmaticism that is not possible. That is, in one is going to follow the arguments logically.
Just my wo cents
[Edited on 25-1-2005 by JohnV]
Just my wo cents
[Edited on 25-1-2005 by JohnV]
A man once approached George Whitfield following a sermon that he had preached and asked rather conspiratorially if Whitfield thought that he would see John Wesley in heaven? To which Whitfield replied, "No." The other man began to grin rather smugly before Whitfield continued with: "No, I don´t think I shall see him. For he shall be so close to Christ and I so far back I doubt that my eye will catch a glimpse of him."
John Wesley preached more than 40,000 sermons, produced more than 400 books, and learned 10 languages. At 83 he was annoyed that he could not write more than 15 hours a day and at the age of 86 he was ashamed that he could not preach more than twice a day. He complained in his diary that there was an increasing tendency to lie in bed until 5:30 in the morning. Still, in his 86th year he preached in nearly every town in England and Wales, riding up to 50 miles each day. (He averaged three sermons a day, seven days each week for 54 years. To do so, he traveled over 250,000 miles, nearly all on horseback.)
It's harder to feel theologically connected to Arminians, but I'd rather have an Arminian on a deserted island than a Mormon, Jew or Wiccan, so only #3 is of greatest concern to me. Followed by #4. JohnV's comments are more in line with my thinking...
Didn't Pink abstain from church attendance in his later years? I wonder if he made it to heaven?
John Wesley preached more than 40,000 sermons, produced more than 400 books, and learned 10 languages. At 83 he was annoyed that he could not write more than 15 hours a day and at the age of 86 he was ashamed that he could not preach more than twice a day. He complained in his diary that there was an increasing tendency to lie in bed until 5:30 in the morning. Still, in his 86th year he preached in nearly every town in England and Wales, riding up to 50 miles each day. (He averaged three sermons a day, seven days each week for 54 years. To do so, he traveled over 250,000 miles, nearly all on horseback.)
It's harder to feel theologically connected to Arminians, but I'd rather have an Arminian on a deserted island than a Mormon, Jew or Wiccan, so only #3 is of greatest concern to me. Followed by #4. JohnV's comments are more in line with my thinking...
Didn't Pink abstain from church attendance in his later years? I wonder if he made it to heaven?
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Depends on the Jewish person...with a practicing Jewish person you sometimes can get further in discussion with them (or at least have a more meaningful discussion) than with an arminian and thus have a convert
As far as Jewish ppl in general...I would love to be on an Island with Beth and Bushey! Imagine the conversations (er, debates in Bushey's case)!
[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
As far as Jewish ppl in general...I would love to be on an Island with Beth and Bushey! Imagine the conversations (er, debates in Bushey's case)!
[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
BobVigneault
Bawberator
You'll take away my seventh day (Saturday) sabbath when you tear it from my cold, grey hands.
Thank you Colleen! You gave a wonderful defense of the biblical sabbath and your convictions. Not only did God preserve the Old Testament through Jewish tradition but he preserved the sabbath in the same manner.
It's certainly not a primary issue but it is always important. Good debate from all.
Thank you Colleen! You gave a wonderful defense of the biblical sabbath and your convictions. Not only did God preserve the Old Testament through Jewish tradition but he preserved the sabbath in the same manner.
It's certainly not a primary issue but it is always important. Good debate from all.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I'm not done yet...........
Ignatius, the apostolic church father who was probably born during the time of our Lord's ministry and was, along with Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, said this about the Sabbath and Sunday worship:
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death -- whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith . . . . (Epistle to the Magnesians, chapter 9).
Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp (mentioned above) wrote:
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration (Comments on weekly worship from chapter 67 of First Apology).
Jesus rose on the first day of the week not the Sabbath: Mk 16:9
All 6 appearances of Jesus happen on two Sundays, none on Sabbath. Mk 16:9; Mt 28:5-9; Lk 24:34; Lk 24:13-15; Lk 24:33,36 + Jn 20:19; Jn 20:26
Christians are recorded assembling three times on Sunday after resurrection and before ascension, never on the Sabbath. Jn 20:19 Jn 20:26 Acts 2:1 (We do not claim that these were worship services, just the early starting point of Sunday gatherings)
The only time Christians are recorded to have assembled together was on a Sunday in Acts 20:7, never does it say the disciples assembled on the Sabbath.
The only day ever mentioned when Christians broke bread was on Sunday: Acts 20:7
Christians are commanded every Sunday to give into a common treasury of the church: 1 Cor 16:1-2
Jesus was declared the Son of God on Sunday: Rom 1:4
Ps 2:7 "Today I have begotten thee" was fulfilled on Sunday when he rose: Acts 13:33
The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
Jesus was crowned king on a Sunday: Acts 2:33-36
The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
The disciples reception of the promise of the Father on Sunday: Acts 1:4-5; 2:1-4
The Holy Spirit first fell upon the apostles on a Sunday: Acts 2:1-4
Salvation first preached by Peter on Sunday: Mt 16:19; Acts 2:1,38,40-41
The Keys to the Kingdom of God were first used on Sunday: Mt 16:19
The great "Triumphal entry" (also called "Palm Sunday") happened on the first day: Luke 13:32
The time between the Lord´s resurrection (sheaf waving day) and Pentecost was Sunday to Sunday counting of 50 days. The starting and stopping time was on the 1st day.
First time Jesus worshiped after resurrection was on the first day by Thomas (Jn. 20:26).
The first time we could be born again to a living hope was on a Sunday: 1 Pet. 1:3
The first time Jesus had communion after his resurrection with His disciples, was on a Sunday: (Lk. 24:1, 13, 28-35)
Pentecost was a Sunday - Sunday duration of 50 days. The starting point and stopping point of counting the 50 days was a Sunday - Sunday period!
While the Sabbath was significant to the Jews, there is no New Testament significance of the Sabbath in connection with anything of Christ, Christianity, the church or heaven!
A. Before Pentecost Christians met on Sunday:
1. The day Jesus was raised: Jn 20:19
2. The very next Sunday: Jn 20:26
3. On the day of Pentecost: Acts 2:1
B. After Pentecost Christians met on Sunday:
1. To partake of the Lord´s supper or communion: Acts 20:7
2. To give money every Sunday: 1 Cor 16:1,2
C. Biblical significance of Sunday as the Lord´s day:
1. Jesus raised from the dead on Sunday: Mk 16:9; Lk 24:1,13,21
2. Jesus was declared the Son of God on Sunday: Rom 1:4
3. Ps 2:7 "Today I have begotten thee" was fulfilled on Sunday when he rose: Acts 13:33
4. Jesus appeared 6 different times on at least 2 different Sundays:
a. Resurrection Sunday:
Mk 16:9 Mary
Mt 28:5-9 Other women
Lk 24:34 Peter (by way of inference)
Lk 24:13-15 Two on Emmaus road
Lk 24:33,36 + Jn 20:19 The apostles
b. One Sunday later: Jn 20:26 The apostles
5. The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
6. The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
a. Signified by reception of the promise of the Father: Acts 1:4-5; 2:1-4
b. Salvation first preached by Peter on Sunday: Mt 16:19; Acts 2:1,38,40-41
7. The 1st day is specifically pointed out in scripture:
a. There is no example of Christians assembling on the Sabbath (7th)
b. No other day is ever specifically mentioned in NT: ie. "4th day"
8. "Lord´s" is used only 2X in NT: "Lord´s day" & "Lord´s supper" 1 Cor 11:20
a. It makes sense to partake of the Lord´s supper on the Lord´s day
b. We know the Lord´s supper was partaken of on Sunday.
9. The Holy Spirit first fell upon the disciples on a Sunday: Acts 2:1-4
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4794#pid57193
[Edited on 1-26-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Ignatius, the apostolic church father who was probably born during the time of our Lord's ministry and was, along with Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, said this about the Sabbath and Sunday worship:
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death -- whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith . . . . (Epistle to the Magnesians, chapter 9).
Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp (mentioned above) wrote:
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration (Comments on weekly worship from chapter 67 of First Apology).
Jesus rose on the first day of the week not the Sabbath: Mk 16:9
All 6 appearances of Jesus happen on two Sundays, none on Sabbath. Mk 16:9; Mt 28:5-9; Lk 24:34; Lk 24:13-15; Lk 24:33,36 + Jn 20:19; Jn 20:26
Christians are recorded assembling three times on Sunday after resurrection and before ascension, never on the Sabbath. Jn 20:19 Jn 20:26 Acts 2:1 (We do not claim that these were worship services, just the early starting point of Sunday gatherings)
The only time Christians are recorded to have assembled together was on a Sunday in Acts 20:7, never does it say the disciples assembled on the Sabbath.
The only day ever mentioned when Christians broke bread was on Sunday: Acts 20:7
Christians are commanded every Sunday to give into a common treasury of the church: 1 Cor 16:1-2
Jesus was declared the Son of God on Sunday: Rom 1:4
Ps 2:7 "Today I have begotten thee" was fulfilled on Sunday when he rose: Acts 13:33
The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
Jesus was crowned king on a Sunday: Acts 2:33-36
The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
The disciples reception of the promise of the Father on Sunday: Acts 1:4-5; 2:1-4
The Holy Spirit first fell upon the apostles on a Sunday: Acts 2:1-4
Salvation first preached by Peter on Sunday: Mt 16:19; Acts 2:1,38,40-41
The Keys to the Kingdom of God were first used on Sunday: Mt 16:19
The great "Triumphal entry" (also called "Palm Sunday") happened on the first day: Luke 13:32
The time between the Lord´s resurrection (sheaf waving day) and Pentecost was Sunday to Sunday counting of 50 days. The starting and stopping time was on the 1st day.
First time Jesus worshiped after resurrection was on the first day by Thomas (Jn. 20:26).
The first time we could be born again to a living hope was on a Sunday: 1 Pet. 1:3
The first time Jesus had communion after his resurrection with His disciples, was on a Sunday: (Lk. 24:1, 13, 28-35)
Pentecost was a Sunday - Sunday duration of 50 days. The starting point and stopping point of counting the 50 days was a Sunday - Sunday period!
While the Sabbath was significant to the Jews, there is no New Testament significance of the Sabbath in connection with anything of Christ, Christianity, the church or heaven!
A. Before Pentecost Christians met on Sunday:
1. The day Jesus was raised: Jn 20:19
2. The very next Sunday: Jn 20:26
3. On the day of Pentecost: Acts 2:1
B. After Pentecost Christians met on Sunday:
1. To partake of the Lord´s supper or communion: Acts 20:7
2. To give money every Sunday: 1 Cor 16:1,2
C. Biblical significance of Sunday as the Lord´s day:
1. Jesus raised from the dead on Sunday: Mk 16:9; Lk 24:1,13,21
2. Jesus was declared the Son of God on Sunday: Rom 1:4
3. Ps 2:7 "Today I have begotten thee" was fulfilled on Sunday when he rose: Acts 13:33
4. Jesus appeared 6 different times on at least 2 different Sundays:
a. Resurrection Sunday:
Mk 16:9 Mary
Mt 28:5-9 Other women
Lk 24:34 Peter (by way of inference)
Lk 24:13-15 Two on Emmaus road
Lk 24:33,36 + Jn 20:19 The apostles
b. One Sunday later: Jn 20:26 The apostles
5. The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
6. The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
a. Signified by reception of the promise of the Father: Acts 1:4-5; 2:1-4
b. Salvation first preached by Peter on Sunday: Mt 16:19; Acts 2:1,38,40-41
7. The 1st day is specifically pointed out in scripture:
a. There is no example of Christians assembling on the Sabbath (7th)
b. No other day is ever specifically mentioned in NT: ie. "4th day"
8. "Lord´s" is used only 2X in NT: "Lord´s day" & "Lord´s supper" 1 Cor 11:20
a. It makes sense to partake of the Lord´s supper on the Lord´s day
b. We know the Lord´s supper was partaken of on Sunday.
9. The Holy Spirit first fell upon the disciples on a Sunday: Acts 2:1-4
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4794#pid57193
[Edited on 1-26-2005 by Scott Bushey]
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Scott, I found the rest of the book....hahahaha....
FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS
"Thent he spiritual seed of Abraham fled to Pella, on the other side of Jordan, where they found a safe place of refuge, and could serve their Master and keep his Sabbath." (Eusebius's "Ecclesiastical History" b, 3, chap. 5)
SECOND CENTURY
EARLY CHRISTIANS
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews; therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their convention upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Lasodicean council." ("The WHole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol IX, p 416 - R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII p 416)
2nd, 3rd, 4th CENTURIES
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may ne proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." ("Sunday a Sabbath" John Ley, p 163. London: 1640)
oooh...here we go...let's skip to the FOURTH CENTURY
ITALY--MILAN
"AMbrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" (Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath" 1612)
PERSIA--AD 335-375
"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zoroaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday on thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday. (O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp 83, 84)
FIFTH CENTURY
"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet thte Christians of Alexandria and at ROme, on account of some ancient tradition refuse to do this." The footnot which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It say: "That is, upon the Saturday. It shoud be observed that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and histiorians." (Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap 22, p. 289)
CONSTANTINOPLE
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." (Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap 19)
Scott, you want more? I have more in these in these groups (but tried to post the ones most associated with the RCC as that is what you recognize historically) and all the way to the 19th century....
FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS
"Thent he spiritual seed of Abraham fled to Pella, on the other side of Jordan, where they found a safe place of refuge, and could serve their Master and keep his Sabbath." (Eusebius's "Ecclesiastical History" b, 3, chap. 5)
SECOND CENTURY
EARLY CHRISTIANS
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews; therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their convention upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Lasodicean council." ("The WHole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol IX, p 416 - R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII p 416)
2nd, 3rd, 4th CENTURIES
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may ne proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." ("Sunday a Sabbath" John Ley, p 163. London: 1640)
oooh...here we go...let's skip to the FOURTH CENTURY
ITALY--MILAN
"AMbrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" (Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath" 1612)
PERSIA--AD 335-375
"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zoroaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday on thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday. (O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp 83, 84)
FIFTH CENTURY
"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet thte Christians of Alexandria and at ROme, on account of some ancient tradition refuse to do this." The footnot which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It say: "That is, upon the Saturday. It shoud be observed that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and histiorians." (Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap 22, p. 289)
CONSTANTINOPLE
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." (Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap 19)
Scott, you want more? I have more in these in these groups (but tried to post the ones most associated with the RCC as that is what you recognize historically) and all the way to the 19th century....
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Scott, as always your research is thorough and straight forward. Usually arguments on the board reach a point where they get so abstruse that no one can follow it anymore. I appreciate your clarity.
For me the matter is still this - the seventh day sabbath is a creation ordinance, it's my conviction that the day is Saturday according to Jewish tradition.
I would take the word of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, to overturn a creation ordinance. I might even be swayed by an explicit word from the apostles. The strength of early church traditions, whether they be Lord's Day worship, the veneration of Mary, the celibacy of priests, priesthood or transubstantiation, is not able to overturn a creation ordinance.
I don't think the 7th dayers will be swayed, the 1st dayers won't be swayed and may God grant peace and lucidity to those still pondering the sabbath puzzle.
For me the matter is still this - the seventh day sabbath is a creation ordinance, it's my conviction that the day is Saturday according to Jewish tradition.
I would take the word of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, to overturn a creation ordinance. I might even be swayed by an explicit word from the apostles. The strength of early church traditions, whether they be Lord's Day worship, the veneration of Mary, the celibacy of priests, priesthood or transubstantiation, is not able to overturn a creation ordinance.
I don't think the 7th dayers will be swayed, the 1st dayers won't be swayed and may God grant peace and lucidity to those still pondering the sabbath puzzle.
, bob
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Jesus said, "I am the Lord of the sabbath", hence, the term "The Lords Day".
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Colleen,
How do you know that the term Sabbath is not being used here in the same way I use it, i.e. I call the Lords day the sabbath interchangeably.
All these show is that there were schisms present. This does not prove that the Sabbath is the 7th day.....
I don't recognize ROME as the historic example. I recognize that the biblical church is our example. It just so happens that Rome is a piece of history that one cannot deny and it is included in the historic church up until the time they became corrupt.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
yes, but it goes to prove that the historic (not just diversions) and Roman churches kept Saturday Sabbath as well as celebrated Roman clergy participating in and endorsing. I did not mean you recognizing Rome to be an insult...I would not try to insult anyone. And if you will note that parts that state that during those times Sunday was never refered to as the Sabbath.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
I believe those two terms were considered to be two separate days for several centuries. As I have proven in my above posts. And why it became a controversy of "which day"...note also that by Christ's example...he KEPT the Sabbath (Saturday)...nowhere does he state that it is done away with...just fulfilled. He "rested" on the Sabbath...not only the general (saturday) sabbath, but during a High Sabbath as well. The work was completed (finished) AFTER the sabbath on the evening of the first day (saturday night, considered the start of Sunday)
I never meant this conversation to say we can't worship on Sunday. I believe we can. But you refuse to even consider the historical references. And your excuse everytime is "factions" "schisms"...I believe I have proven that they weren't the only ones that held to this. Sunday is something that developed over time due to honoring and circumstancial (and even prejudicious at one time) reasons. I believe this is also shown.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
No, you have proven that there were factions that kept Saturday. Whether this is true is irrelevent to the argument. What we have been trying to prove is what day is the biblical sabbath. As I have demonstrated by scripture above, the historic, biblical account is that Christ changed the sabbath to HIS day. I suggest you meditate upon the passages and biblical references I provide.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Again, I suggest you meditate upon the lengthy post and all the passages and rationales.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
can we get one of thesewith a person on both sides?
- Status
