biblical seperation...when is the time?

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I believe the Scriptural evidence for the change of the Sabbath day from the seventh day of the week to the first is abundantly clear.

However, I am curious...do the seventh-day advocates hold to a sundown-to-sundown Sabbath?

I believe not only was the day changed but also the reckoning of the day (ie., from midnight to midnight).
 
For anyone who is interested in a really in-depth Biblical and historical study of the various issues relating to the Sabbath, especially the change of day, I commend Dr. F. Nigel Lee's The Covenantal Sabbath:

http://www.dr-fnlee.org/docs3/covsab/Covsab_TOC.html

I commend Robert L. Dabney's comprehensive treatise on the Sabbath as well:

http://apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/RobertDabneyChristianSabbath.htm

For a study of why the reckoning of the Sabbath was changed (in addition to the day) from sundown-to-sundown to midnight-to-midnight, I commend Greg Price's article on the subject:

http://www.ecn.ab.ca/prce/books/sabbath/sabbath.htm

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
I observe the sabbath from sundown to sundown. I have publicly worshipped on both the sabbath and the Lord's Day. I prefer to 'go to church' on Sunday so I can truly sabbath (rest) on the seventh day. It is a day of rest, fellowshipping with friends and being restored in the Lord's graces.

Sunday's were always so hectic, especially when the kids were young. Last weekend I rested on the sabbath (saturday) and preached twice on Sunday.

(I know, my name's not Colleen and nobody asked me. I threw my two cents in anyway.)

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by maxdetail]
 
Bob,

I didn't mean to exclude you from the conversation. :)

I am interested in your thoughts and practice as well. Is church attendance a matter of choice, though, or an obligation as it relates to the Fourth Commandment, whether one is speaking of Friday/Saturday or the Lord's Day?
 
Max, anyone is welcome to throw in their two cents...I tend to get demolished at times...but, hey, it's sharpening my wits whether I agree or disagree and many times I learn something new. We just seem to be cycling on this issue.

Andrew, we don't formally observe saturday anymore, but at one time we did exactly at Max did. In a religious sense we do recognize the sundown to sundown...even our ministers encourage us to prepare the night before. In a practical sense (time keeping) it is naturally midnight to midnight.

(Scott, edited post at top of this page :bigsmile: )

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
 
It's harder to feel theologically connected to Arminians, but I'd rather have an Arminian on a deserted island than a Mormon, Jew or Wiccan, so only #3 is of greatest concern to me.
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I wonder if this should be qualified. We are all created in the image of God; we are all sinners who deserve eternal seperation from God; God is just in all His decisions.

It reminds me of the group discussions I was in on the "Who will survive" question. Of course, the plate was stacked (the minister, the pretty actress, the young mother, the aging man, ad nauseum) but the only true answer is that we have no right to decide for God.

Most people long for human companionship, and I understand Cheri's qualification 'I would rather.' But maybe God placed the JW with you on the island to use you as the means to bring her to saving faith (could have been him.)

As for me, I would rather have my wife along. ;)
 
:amen: (the point of my response to that posting)

And besides my hubby...it's be nice place for the kids to run wild!:banana:

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
 
Originally posted by maxdetail
I observe the sabbath from sundown to sundown. I have publicly worshipped on both the sabbath and the Lord's Day. I prefer to 'go to church' on Sunday so I can truly sabbath (rest) on the seventh day. It is a day of rest, fellowshipping with friends and being restored in the Lord's graces.

Sunday's were always so hectic, especially when the kids were young. Last weekend I rested on the sabbath (saturday) and preached twice on Sunday.
Click to expand...

I like this idea. Yes, Sundays can be hectic, especially for pastors with small children, but anyday is hectic when you have small children. My children are grown, but I have a grandson. However, my grandson is just fun for me!

Saturday is a day, at this point in my life, where I try to get everything prepared for Sunday. Saturday is one of the days I work out at the YMCA, so I'm not sure if that day could qualify as a day of rest!!
 
My friend Andrew asked:

I am interested in your thoughts and practice as well. Is church attendance a matter of choice, though, or an obligation as it relates to the Fourth Commandment, whether one is speaking of Friday/Saturday or the Lord's Day?

God set apart the seventh day and called it holy. In the 4th commandment, nothing new is added or taken away - it tells us to keep holy what God has made holy. I cannot take away from the day's holiness.

I have posted this before, but I see the sabbath as a gift to man. "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath". It is a wonderflu gift, it is a gracious gift. We do injury to the concept of 'sabbath rest' when we argue what MUST and MUST NOT be done on the day. The pharisees did that. I can't tell you how to keep the sabbath holy but I can tell you it is a sanctified day set apart for spiritual and physical restoration.

We can never say, "I don't have time to pray, or read my Bible or spend time with Christian friends because the Lord has given us a day just for that purpose. I didn't grow up in a reformed church so obviously I'm not as theonomic in my thinking as many of you. I don't view sanctification as a list of obligations and restrictions and I'm not saying you do but there is that tendancy.

I lean toward the RWP but it has not become the all encompassing filter for worship. I worship every day, I'm not sure the scripture says public worship must be on Sunday or even the sabbath.

We are all at a different place on a hermeneutical spiral and as of yet I sure can't tell who holds the golden key to unlock true truth.
 
Originally posted by maxdetail
We are all at a different place on a hermeneutical spiral and as of yet I sure can't tell who holds the golden key to unlock true truth.
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Notwithstanding the thread, I like this sentence.
 
Bob and Colleen,

Thanks for your responses to my questions. I know the Sabbath issue is one where you both have particular convictions and passions.

As you know, I adhere to the conviction that "there remains a Sabbath rest" (Heb. 4.8) and we are not to "forsake the assembling of ourselves together" (Heb. 10.25). The purpose of the OT Sabbath, as I understand it, was not just for physical rest, but that we might cease our wordly labors for the purpose of attending upon our spiritual duties, ie., the public and private worship of God. As I see it, the public assembly of the saints on the Lord's Day is not just an optional thing or a matter of pragmatic convenience, but a duty.

Setting aside the question of what day the Christian Sabbath is on (for the moment), if we are to keep the day holy, what then is required of us? The Westminster Larger Catechism, which I adhere to, says:

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord´s day to be sanctified?

A. The sabbath or Lord´s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,[624] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;[625] and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy[626]) in the public and private exercises of God´s worship:[627] and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[628]

[627] Isaiah 58:13. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.... Luke 4:16. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Acts 20:7. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. Psalm 92 (title: A psalm or song for the sabbath-day). Isaiah 66:23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Leviticus 23:3. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
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If this is true, then from my perspective it follows that Christians have a duty to assemble on God's holy day for worship. That is the chief purpose of the day, I think. Jewish Sabbath observance among the orthodox (I am no expert but I've seen Fiddler on the Roof :) ) begins on Friday evening with worship that is continued the next day. While there ought to be differences between Jewish and Christian Sabbath observance, it is the whole day which ought to be kept holy, and Jewish observance, I think, ought to be reminder to Christians concerning that as well as Paul's preaching until midnight on the first day of the week. Hence, Christian churches often have morning and evening services.

It has been rightly noted that Sabbath observance ought not be legalistic, but Sabbath observance is a requirement, the purpose for which, I would argue, is so that we might be better suited and equipped to enter into that spiritual rest. The Christian Sabbath, the Lord's Day is, to me, a taste of heaven. As such, it is right and proper -- nay, mandatory, I think -- that Christians should keep the Fourth Commandment by assembling together for public worship.
 
I fully agree with you Andrew and after I looked at my last post I said, "That almost sounds like I'm saying you can worship anytime, anywhere."

Our assembling is not only a duty but I believe it to be a visible mark of the believer. The true believer loves, desires greatly to assemble with God's people. I just don't think it works to coerce anybody to do it. If a person doesn't want to be with God's people when the assembly meets then that person has deeper problems than a sabbath conviction.

A year ago, to my frustration, my mother joined a Seventh Day Adventist church. I told her that I thought it teaches were not biblical and they accepted extra-biblical prophecy.

3 days ago she told me that she is sorry she joined because now they want her to observe the sabbath - no shopping, no restaurants, etc.
This is so ironic because I want her to leave the church but at the same time I'm defending the church's stand regarding the sabbath.

I want her to leave for the right reasons, not the wrong reasons. :banghead:

That brings us back to the beginning of this thread that got hijacked.
 
Ah, the irony! I do hope that your mother will leave that church.

Thanks for the elucidation, Bob! :handshake:

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
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I confess...I opened the door to the highjacking...but I warned everyone that SOMEONE was going to have a fit with me. lol.

Thank you, Andrew for that exhortation...I really did need it. And, yes I hold the assembling ourselves together to be a higher priority, which is why I have laid to rest the "what day" issue years ago. My point was mainly historical analysis, but we see where that got us. Thank you again...I think it a good thing to be reminded.
 
I wanted to address something that Andrew's post brought to mind and I don't remember seeing addressed here. He used Heb 10:25 which I believe speaks to those in the context of persecution in the first century (i.e. "as you see the Day approaching"). Nor does Heb 10:25 address HOW OFTEN we should assemble together. If this is the only verse in the Bible that talks about Christians assembling together for worship, then it does a poor job of proving a weekly assembly - no matter which day we choose.

But, the real thing that got me to thinking was his mention of what the Jews did. Sure they didn't work on the Sabbath, but neither did the O.C. require them to assemble together on the Sabbath or even weekly for that matter. The weekly get-together sprung out of their being in exile when they had no temple. The temple was the only place the Lord required Israel to journey to and make offerings, worship, etc. and even that wasn't very often. So the Jews in exile started up the synagogues for their own benefit, not in response to some command of God. In fact, synagogues became their substitute for the temple and has been their way of sustaining their unbelief since. I believe the idea of the modern church is built upon this model, and not upon Scripture or even the practice of the early church (i.e. with their house churches).

Of course, even those of my own tradition would disagree (see "Go to Church or Go to Hell" by Conrad Murrell)

Regarding the island thing, I thought that the nature of this thread was on what basis Christians should separate from other Christians. I don't particularly like attending Arminian churches, but what I meant by my comment was I would rather fellowship with an Arminian than have no fellowship. I didn't think we were talking about evangelization. I don't believe "church" is the place where unbelievers should come to be evangelized. The "church" should be for the Church. Of course we could preach the gospel to a non-believer on an island, but if it were just me and another guy for an untold length of time, give me an Arminian, a Mennonite or a even a Presbyterian!
 
Originally posted by VERITAS
I wanted to address something that Andrew's post brought to mind and I don't remember seeing addressed here. He used Heb 10:25 which I believe speaks to those in the context of persecution in the first century (i.e. "as you see the Day approaching"). Nor does Heb 10:25 address HOW OFTEN we should assemble together. If this is the only verse in the Bible that talks about Christians assembling together for worship, then it does a poor job of proving a weekly assembly - no matter which day we choose.
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Heb. 10.25 is not the key verse upon which the duty of Christians to assemble together for God's worship on his holy day is based. I mentioned it because Hebrews emphasizes that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4.9) and also re-emphasizes the the duty of believers to assemble together for worship.

The basis of the duty to assemble for the worship of God, however, is found in the Fourth Commandment.

Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?
A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath,[622] and in the New Testament called The Lord’s day.[623]

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,[624] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;[625] and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy[626]) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:[627] and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[628]

[622] Deuteronomy 5:12-14. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. Genesis 2:2-3. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. Acts 20:7. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Matthew 5:17-18. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Isaiah 56:2, 4, 6-7. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.... For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant.... Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[623] Revelation 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

[624] Exodus 20:8, 10. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.... But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.

[625] Exodus 16:25-28. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? Nehemiah 13:15-22. In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals. There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. So the merchants and sellers of all kind of ware lodged without Jerusalem once or twice. Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy. Jeremiah 17:21-22. Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

[626] Matthew 12:1-13. At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, etc.

[627] Isaiah 58:13. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.... Luke 4:16. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Acts 20:7. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. Psalm 92 (title: A psalm or song for the sabbath-day). Isaiah 66:23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Leviticus 23:3. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

[628] Exodus 20:8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Luke 23:54, 56. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.... And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Exodus 16:22, 25-26, 29. And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.... And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.... See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Nehemiah 13:19. And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.
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VERITAS...I have to say, on the island thing....if it were you and a Mennonite one of you two would kill the other...and seeing as they are none-resistant...it'd be a good thing for you that there would be no courts! :lol: And if you thought that you would be able to worship together, well, sista....that would be just a bit hard with you under the bann as a heretic....:chained:
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
VERITAS...if it were you and a Mennonite one of you two would kill the other...and seeing as they are none-resistant...it'd be a good thing for you that there would be no courts! :lol:
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You're assuming their non-resistance would hold out. I't seems that I'm able to make the most nonviolent, tractable, gentle, malleable, irenic people turn into raving, foaming-at-the-mouth, violent monsters who long for my demise! ;) I guess it's the anabaptist in me...
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The basis of the duty to assemble for the worship of God, however, is found in the Fourth Commandment.
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As a Christian, I have NEVER been under the Old Covenant, much less the Fourth Commandment. That covenant was made obsolete a long time before I was even a gleam in my parents' eyes. Perhaps you've read that verse? It came a couple of chapters prior to Heb 10...

P.S. Besides, as if that answer is not enough, you failed to prove that a day of rest=the church assembling for worship.

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by VERITAS]
 
z7shysterical.gif


Ya know....I think you and I would get along great on an island! Actually, I miss living on an island....and if we had a mennonite with us, well....depends on the mennonite.......I stumped many of the women in the Orchardville community and (gasp) I don't make desert everyday (thus my ruined reputation as an uncaring momma....
q9crolleyes.gif
)
 
Originally posted by VERITAS
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
VERITAS...if it were you and a Mennonite one of you two would kill the other...and seeing as they are none-resistant...it'd be a good thing for you that there would be no courts! :lol:
Click to expand...

You're assuming their non-resistance would hold out. I't seems that I'm able to make the most nonviolent, tractable, gentle, malleable, irenic people turn into raving, foaming-at-the-mouth, violent monsters who long for my demise! ;) I guess it's the anabaptist in me...
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Cheri,
Are you an anabaptist?
 
in a technical sense, Bushey, all baptists were at one time called "anabaptist" or rebaptizers as they did not recognize Catholic or Infantile baptisms. But here in the States they been categorized further, baptists (resistant)(most borderline calvinistic/armenianist) and anabaptists (non-resistant)(full-blown armenianist).
 
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