Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate thread: LIVE play-by-play

[Tim]

Ham: the historic views of those who hold the evolutionary model is also a "belief".

 

[Tim]

Ham outlines creation, corruption, catastrophe, confusion, Christ, cross, consummation as the Biblical model of history.

 

[Tim]

Ham uses this as a way to present the Gospel.

 

[Tim]

Ham: this debate necessarily includes religion, morality, etc.

 

[Tim]

Nye begins 30 minute slot to make his case.

 

[Tim]

Nye: limestone layers in Kentucky contains mature coral - millions of layers. Also thousands of layers in ice cannot be formed in the creationist timeline.

 

[Tim]

Nye: some old trees are 6000-9000 years old. The creationist timeline doesn't provide enough time.

 

[Tim]

Nye: Grand Canyon layers are "settled out" instead of "churned" as would be the case of a flood. [not sure I properly summarized this point]

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

It is a credit to Ken Ham that every answer he gives is interwoven with the gospel.

 

[Tim]

Nye: animal fossils in rock layers are separated, but in a flood, we would expect them to be mixed.

 

[Tim]

Nye: many kinds of primate skulls, but the creationist model only has a few forms.

 

[Tim]

Nye: animals were able to get to Australia over a land bridge, but there is no evidence of a land bridge. According to the creationist model, there would need to be some fossils (such as kangaroos) in Asia.

 

[Tim]

Nye: the number of species (16 million) came from 7000 kinds, according to Ham's view of 4000 years timeline. This would mean 11 new species every day.

 

[Tim]

Nye: creationists assert that heavier rocks sink to bottom, but there are big rocks on the top of the land in Pacific NW.

 

[Tim]

Nye: it is unlikely that Noah and his family were able to build an ark of 500+ ft. He cites a modern example of a constructed wooden ship (smaller than ark) that sunk.

 

[Tim]

Nye gives example of the area required for a zoo and contrasts this to the size of the ark.

 

[Tim]

Nye: example of the Canadian "fossil marsh" where fish-lizard "Tiktaalik" was found following prediction of scientists holding to evolutionary model. Nye claims that Ken Ham's model would be unable to do such prediction.

[not sure I get this point...]

 

[Tim]

Nye: asexual vs. sexual minnows - evolution predicted the transition between asexual and sexual.

[not sure I properly summarized this]

 

[Tim]

Nye: Hubble observed the stars moving apart; Hoyle supposed this was because of a "Big Bang" (hence the model of the same name). Big bang "echo" detected in subsequent years, supporting the previous astronomers' predictions.

 

[Tim]

Nye: Rubidium/Strontium provide measure of age of rock/fossils. Rubidium now used for nuclear medicine applications.

[Tim says: this is an especially weak point, I think. I don't see how this deals with the proposition of the debate].

 

[Tim]

Nye discusses the "starlight problem".

[Tim says: I would have liked to have him discuss more about this].

 

[Tim]

Nye asks whether it is reasonable to accept creationist model based on the evidence he presented. Conclusion.

 

[Tim]

Begin 5 minute rebuttal of Ham.

 

[Tim]

Ham states that you can't "observe" the age of the earth and appeals to Biblical timeline, specifically Genesis and the genealogies of the Bible.

 

[Tim]

Ham acknowledges that we can "observe" radioactive decay. Ham cites example of wood and basalt in same layer measured to be vastly different ages. Another similar example provided to show that dating is unreliable and based on assumptions pertaining to the decay rate.

 

[Tim]

Ham acknowledges that some Christians believe in millions of years of history, but they are being inconsistent because this requires belief in millions of years of death and bloodshed. He claims that the only infallible dating method is the "One who was there" (i.e., God).

 

[Tim]

End Ham rebuttal.

 

[Tim]

[sorry, missed some points]

Nye: did fish sin?

Nye: astronomers observe the past, this occurs when light is observed. Re-asserts that there should not be a separation between present and past observations and natural laws. Identifies point of contention is uniformity.

 

[Tim]

Nye: teeth of past animals indicate that they were not vegetarian.

Nye also frequently mentions that the Bible is "translated into English" over long period of time, implying some sort of unreliability....

Nye: if we accept creationist model ("Bible as science textbook"), Ham's interpretation is more trustworthy than natural observation.

 

[Tim]

End Nye rebuttal.