Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate thread: LIVE play-by-play

Discussion in 'Defending the Faith' started by Tim, Feb 4, 2014.

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  1. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Ham begins counter-rebuttal.

    Ham: natural law hasn't changed and only makes sense within Biblical worldview.

    Ham: the model is not only mine; many other creation scientists hold to this.

    Ham: Nye is confusing the terms of species and kinds. He explains the difference and states that there was lots of room on the ark for all.
     
  2. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Ham: we didn't see tree rings laid down, ice can build up catastrophically.

    Ham: some bears have sharp teeth, even though they are vegetarians.
     
  3. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Ham: creationists believe in post-flood catastrophic, which might explain boulders in Pacific NW.

    Ham: Nye is assuming that Noah was unsophisticated. Ancient Chinese did have some good wooden boats.
     
  4. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Ham: introduces the "horizon problem" which is a problem for many astronomical models. End Ham counter-rebuttal.
     
  5. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Nye: unconvinced that Ham addressed many layers or rock or ice mentioned by Nye at the beginning of his presentation. Also unconvinced that Ham addressed the prolifery of species.
     
  6. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Nye: I cannot accept that Noah was a good enough shipwright.
     
  7. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Nye: why did natural law change 4000 years ago? Our assumptions of rates of change are based on past observation.

    Nye: there are billions of religious people in the world, yet they are not creationists. What is to become of all those people? He again contrasts scientific observation with "a book translated into American English".
     
  8. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Begin 45 minutes of question & answers from the audience.
     
  9. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: how does creationism account for celestial bodies moving apart; what is the purpose of this design?

    Ham's answer: God stretches out the heavens for His glory and show of His power. Earth, human beings are significant. God gives salvation.

    Nye's answer: man troubled by question of man's origin. Science provides answers of our origin. Nye questions how Ham is satisfied by the answer given and whether Ham's model can predict.
     
  10. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: where did we/matter come from, before Big Bang (?) [may have missed exact question]

    Nye's answer: universe is accelerating in its expansion. Force behind this is here; we need to search for it.

    Ham's answer: Bible tells us our origin; God created matter.
     
  11. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: majority of scientists support evolutionary theory; what, other than the Bible, supports creationist model?

    Ham's answer: majority are evolutionists, but majority is not always best judge. Cites past incorrect notions in medicine. Example of something supporting creationist model: if Bible is right, there is only one race.

    Nye's answer: if anybody makes discovery that changes view of natural law, we embrace that person (so majority not always maintained).
     
  12. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: how did consciousness come from matter?

    Nye's answer: I don't know, but I look forward to the joy of discovery of this.

    Ham's answer: The Bible tells us. The Creator made man in His image. God gave it to us. Ham questions the point of "joy of discovery" if one ceases to exist after death. Ham expresses the joy of discovery as well.
     
  13. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: what, if anything, would change your mind.

    Ham's answer: I am a Christian. I can't prove it to you, but God has shown me clearly through His word and Jesus Christ. Check the prophecies. If the Bible is the Word of God, check it out. We build models based on the Bible. These models are subject to change, but the Bible is not. As a Christian, I have a foundation.

    Nye's answer: one piece of evidence: fossil that swam from one layer to another. Astronomical and geological evidence. Any of those things...I would change immediately. Mr. Ham, what can you prove? What can you predict?
     
  14. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: outside radiometric methods, what supports your view of the earth's age?

    Nye's answer: age of stars, deposition rates (geology), the necessary age of earth to allow evolution to take place. Radioactivity is why earth maintains its heat after so long. The evidence is overwhelming. Mr. Ham never addressed issue of many skulls, which has many steps.

    Ham's answer: no earth rock was dated to get 4.5 billion years. In fact [meteorite??] was dated.
     
  15. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: can you reconcile present continental drift speed with alleged speed of drift at creation [flood?]

    Ham's answer: we shouldn't assume that the speeds are the same. A flood would have changed things. We do believe the [super] continent has split up.

    Nye's answer: sea floor spreading provides signature
     
  16. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: favorite color.

    Nye: green.

    Ham: observational science: blue (referring to necktie).
     
  17. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: how do you reconcile your view with the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

    Nye's answer: if your theory disagrees with 2nd law of thermo, there is no help for you. The earth is not a closed system (energy from sun). This energy drives us.

    Ham's answer: energy/matter never produces life. Things are running down now, after the fall. The 2nd law was present before fall.
     
  18. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: if evidence refuted young-earth, would you still be a Christian?

    Ham's answer: there is no hypothetical; you can't ever prove that using the scientific method. I believe in a young universe because of God's Word.

    Nye's answer: you can prove the age of the earth using observation. Ham wants us to take his word for it (book written 1000s of years ago, American English translated). Is Ham sure that life cannot come from non-life? What can you predict?
     
  19. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: is there room for God in science?

    Nye's answer: many people believe in God. Is there anyone here who hasn't benefited from technology/medicine? This isn't connected with belief in higher power. Many of these people still believe in science.

    Ham's answer: God is necessary for science. I like technology, which is in the present. God is necessary because you have to assume uniformity; where does uniformity come from, naturally speaking?
     
  20. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: should entire Bible be taken literally? Cites some OT laws.

    Ham's answer: history, poetry, prophecy should be taken naturally. There is misunderstanding of laws specific for Israelites.

    Nye's answer: it appears that parts of Bible embraced literally; others taken poetically. Scientifically, reasonably, things that contradict opening verses - difficult to accept rest of Bible.
     
  21. BJClark

    BJClark Puritan Board Doctor

    I notice Mr. Nye, isn't answering many questions he's asked..he merely asks Mr. Hamm different questions..it's like he doesn't have an answer..so he's avoiding..
     
  22. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: could evolution have been accomplished by higher power?

    Nye's answer: can't prove or disprove higher power (agnostic). Intelligent design has fundamental misunderstanding (watchmaker) - nature has mediocre designs eaten by better designs. Nature works bottom-up.

    Ham's answer: Nye needs to provide evidence of a new function appearing that would not have been possible given present genetic information. There is no example of this.
     
  23. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Ham: name one institution (other than yours) that uses creationism to produce its product

    Ham's answer: any work of production uses creationism because they borrow from that worldview (laws of logic, nature, etc). If these aren't taught, we can't advance.

    Nye's answer: I don't accept creationism because it can't predict. Nye asks about fate of those who didn't hear the Biblical message.
     
  24. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Question for Nye: how do you explain evidence of man's intelligence in past?

    Nye's answer: man isn't necessarily getting smarter. Evolution means survival of fittest - "fitting in". Our capacity to reason has got us here, but if a germ shows up with greater killing ability, we will be eliminated even though we are smart.

    Ham's answer: blind fish have been used as example of favorable evolution. Not "survival of fittest", it is "survival of those who survive".
     
  25. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Final question: what is the one thing, more than anything else, upon which you base your belief.

    Ham's answer: Bible is unique - it tells of the origin of everything - sin, languages, nations, etc. Man is sinner, separated from God. Message of salvation. If Bible is true, it should make sense of the world. If you search for the Truth, God will reveal Himself.

    Nye's answer: My beliefs based on information/process called science. This fills me with joy - to pursue answers. We are one of the ways that the universe knows itself. We have come to be because of the universe's existence. Are we alone? These questions drive us. Science is compelling. If we abandon all that we have learned, and the process by which we know it, we in the US will be out-competed to other countries. Science education must be kept in science classes.
     
  26. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

  27. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritan Board Doctor

    The reaction to the debate on twitter is very interesting. The "atheists" and "leftists" that I follow are obviously picking Nye as a winner and think his arguments are great, but nearly all of them are talking about how respectful, gentle, and thoughtful is Ken Ham. That in itself is a testimony.

    Most of the negative comments towards Ken Ham that I have seen are from fellow Christians embarrassed by Creationism.
     
  28. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    Interesting about the gentleness of Ham acknowledged by his opponents. That's a good reminder.
     
  29. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    I noticed on YouTube that there were 500,000 viewers at the end. That's huge.
     
  30. Tyrese

    Tyrese Puritan Board Sophomore

    I think its sad that so many Christians are embarrassed by Creationism. I will have to disagree with Ken ham when he said, "I'm not saying those who believe in a old earth are not Christians." I have a hard time believing that people can outright reject the first few chapters in the Bible knowing that Christ himself believed these things. I think this is why Christ said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." I think many people are wise in their own eyes to see that we need to humble ourselves and accept what God has taught us in His Word.
     
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