Billy Graham

Discussion in 'Cults & World Religions' started by ~~Susita~~, Jul 4, 2006.

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  1. gwine

    gwine Puritan Board Sophomore

    Actually I've had my share of threads that died after I added a comment. Just you watch this one and see.
     
  2. jaybird0827

    jaybird0827 PuritanBoard Honor Roll

    :handshake:

    I see I'm in good company. I'm looking for a lead balloon icon to include in my posts. I searched Google in vain.

    JJS
     
  3. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Not dead yet. :lol:
     
  4. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    The Mormons, Jehovahs Witness and Boston Church of Christ say this as well. Is that the Gospel?
     
  5. gwine

    gwine Puritan Board Sophomore

    Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

    Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
     
  6. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Gerry,
    I am aware of those passages; what are you trying to get across to me by posting them?
     
  7. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    Let's add that he has 'homosexual Christians' working in his crusades, etc (this was documented in a book on homosexuals in Christianity, book review done for the Charleston Post and Courier, my aunt did the review).
     
  8. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Colleen,
    Are they actually practicing homosexuals or repentant ones? Could you support this? I for one would like to see that.
     
  9. gwine

    gwine Puritan Board Sophomore

    Um, that "But if he told people that Jesus Christ died for their sins, then that is the Gospel" is not the Gospel? I wasn't even really trying to be argumentive - just quoting Scripture. Forgive me if I came across wrong - I haven't the foggiest idea what you're trying to say.
     
  10. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Gerry,
    No offense taken brother.

    What I am trying to say is that a gospel message tainted with heresy is not THE gospel message at all. As I mentioned earlier, the JW's, Mormons and Boston C of C all say that in their gospel [sic] messages; are they correct?
     
  11. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Add to the above the Roman Catholics........
     
  12. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    My understanding is that, yes, they are practicing homosexuals. I found the review 3 years ago on the P&C website by searching their archives for family. That was the article that led me to my aunt and she herself is a practicing lesbian. A few months later I tried to continue searching the archives and they had shut it down. I do not know if it is back up or not. I'll try to see if I can locate the review.
     
  13. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    Okay, they do have their archives back. But they have apparently "cleaned it out" of anything going back more than a couple of years. It was 2003 that I read it...it's not on the site anymore. (and the horrors that show up when you google 'homosexuals, christianity, flynt'...yikes)
     
  14. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    LOL thanks brother. :handshake:
     
  15. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    What difference is there between practising homosexuals and say, practising gossips, gluttons or alcoholics? One can't be a practising homosexual and be a Christian but one can be a practising gossip, glutton or alcoholic (or even all three) and still be a Christian.

    [Edited on 7-17-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
     
  16. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    I'm not aware of the Mormons and JWs teaching this. I'll have to check up on that. But if they do teach this then they would not be a cult. The Gospel is that Jesus Christ died for sinners. :bigsmile:
     
  17. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    If one is openly living in unrepentant sin, there is no reason to consider this person a christian at all.

    1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
    1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
     
  18. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    Who says they are living in "unrepentant" sin though? They could be caught in a cycle of sin and repentance that I'm sure all of us have been in at some time. Again, there are many practising gossips, gluttons and alcoholics out there and they get a free pass but people are quick to judge homosexuals. I was only trying to point that out. So to be consistent, the practising judgemental people, as well as practising gossips, gluttons and alcoholics also aren't Christians. Would you agree?

    13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
    21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God"ā€¯through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

    [Edited on 7-17-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
     
  19. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    Also Jeff, on the surface those verses appear contradictory to each other that you posted above. But when we remember the verse that says "If we confess our sins..." it is not contradictory. Therefore one who "practises" sin but confesses it, as Paul did, is indeed a Christian. I know you are probably going to misinterpret me here and that's fine. I know what I mean and it's not what you are probably going to think I mean.
     
  20. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    Brian,

    Romans 7 verse does not contradict 1 John at all. In Romans 7, Paul is declaring the difficulties of the sinful Christian life (the already, and the not yet). Surely we are a sinful people, and that the more we meditate upon scripture and what Christ has accomplished for us, the more we should recongnize exactly how sinful we truly are. We should be able to declare with Paul "I am the chief of sinners!"

    To confuse this type of struggle with that of a habitual unrepentant sin is a category mistake though. While the christian will struggle with temptation, actual sin, and even times of "slipping away", he still has the Spirit of God convicting him of his sin, and causing grief to inhabit his offenses against the God that has bought him.

    Sin causes the nonchristian to sin more, to look for other ways to militate against the God that judges him. Sin causes the Christian to recognize his miserable condition, repent of his actions and to trust in the Messiah who alone can earn the perfect righteousness required for acceptance with the Father.

    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
    Rom 7:25 I thank God; through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
     
  21. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    Brian,

    It could be that we agree. But just to be sure, how would you interpret the following section from 1 Corinthians?

    1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
    1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
     
  22. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    Hi Jeff, I hear what you are saying. I meant that the passage from 1John that you posted seems to contradict itself on the surface. It says that if one walks in darkness they are not in the light. Then it says if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. This seems contradictory until we remember that the end of the passage says that we will be forgiven if we confess our sins.

    I understand that a Christian will not want to sin (well, sometimes they do want to) but the fact is (as you agree) that we will until the day we die. That is when Jesus will rescue us from this body of death. Until then we are flesh and sin is always near.

    But we are saved through faith in Christ, not through being perfect in this life. I started out in a pentecostal church and they were all about perfection in this life. I just don't see that as a possibility.
     
  23. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    I think for the most part, we do agree. 'We are each coming from opposite sides, both sharing truth.

    This passage you listed above, it is tough. I accept it as the Word of God, but then it seems to contradict the message of grace. It hints at legalism in my eyes. First we are saved by grace through faith, and now we're either saved by keeping the law or we're kept saved by keeping the law. Pentecostals use this verse to promote their "perfection in this life" theology.
     
  24. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    Brian,

    Just for clarification, I am in no way suggesting a *works based* justification, but rather the reformed understanding of repentance. I this view, there are two ways to categorize sin; 1) Those that if known about will bring about repentance, grief, and a desire to not commit the sin any longer, OR 2) Those that if known about bring about a pleasure that enjoys it's rebellion against Christ and desires to do it even more, regardless of the consequences. It is the latter view of sin that is so dangerous that it can be damning. Again, as the Westminster Confession of Faith states:

    Let us all take to heart our own sin and rest in Christ as the only redeemer of it's consequences.
     
  25. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Brian,
    All of the groups above hold to semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism. The Jesus that died for sinners is a Christ that justifies by grace alone, not works.
     
  26. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    Scott, that's what I thought. But the Gospel is still this: that Jesus Christ died for sinners. And that's what Billy Graham preaches...or at least he was when I saw him in Toronto a decade ago.
     
  27. BaptistCanuk

    BaptistCanuk Puritan Board Sophomore

    gotcha. agreed.:handshake:
     
  28. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Again, thats what the JW's, Mormons, Roman Catholics preach; is their presentation the gospel or an illicit gospel, and if it is an illicit gospel, does that not say that at the root of their gospel are lies and heresy? Billy Graham is an out and out Arminian/semi-Pelagian and at the root of his gospel are lies, heresy and error.
     
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