Bonhoeffer on Union Theological Seminary

[N. Eshelman]

Here is a great quote from Bonhoeffer on his time studying at Union Theological Seminary:

"There is no theology here... They talk a blue streak without the slightest substantive foundation... The students are completely clueless with respect to what dogmatics is really about. They are unfamiliar with even the most basic of questions. They become intoxicated with liberal and humanistic phrases, laugh at the fundamentalists, and yet basically are not even up to their level."

This is from his biography, "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy."

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

I just reviewed that book for my Church's women's "book lunch." Thankfully, Union's relevance has declined to the point that no one had even heard of it. Which may not be surprising in the backwater where I live!

 

[N. Eshelman]

I just reviewed that book for my Church's women's "book lunch." Thankfully, Union's relevance has declined to the point that no one had even heard of it. Which may not be surprising in the backwater where I live!

Huh. Union is well known by seminarians that are looking for almost ANY theological book. They have a very fine library. Too bad that it has become such a cess pool theologically.

 

[jwithnell]

Remind me of my history here. Did Mr. Bonhoeffer study at Union in the time right before he returned to Germany during the war, or was this at an earlier date?

 

[N. Eshelman]

He returned to Germany right before Hitler came into power.

 

[TimV]

His early writings were great. I read his thesis a couple years ago and it was really good. He didn't get all mystical until he got older.

 

[Jack K]

This is from his biography, "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy."

Ooh! I read very few biographies but really liked that book.

 

[Philip]

He didn't get all mystical until he got older.

I'm not sure calling Bonhoeffer a mystic is strictly accurate. His theology (at least what I've read of it) is far too practical. In any case, his later writings are far too fragmentary to construct a theology on---much of the theology that has taken Bonhoeffer's thought as inspiration has jumped off of some of his musings which a) were written to friends and were never intended to be published b) were just that: musings and playing with ideas.

I need to read more Bonhoeffer---The Cost of Discipleship is one of those books that I have this love-hate relationship with.

 

[J. Dean]

So was Bonhoeffer within Scriptural bounds? Rumor is that Barth had influence on him, and Barth was not orthodox (or at the very least came across as heterodox).

 

[Philip]

So was Bonhoeffer within Scriptural bounds? Rumor is that Barth had influence on him, and Barth was not orthodox (or at the very least came across as heterodox).

Bonhoeffer, from what I can tell, was most likely a Barthian---which in the German church of his day made him as orthodox as it got (Barth wrote the founding documents for what became the Confessing Church). He was on good terms with Barth for most of his career, and the two often exchanged letters.

Neither could be ordained in the PCA today, given their (relatively) low view of Scripture (authority, not infallibility is the best way to say their view briefly---though it's much more complicated). Though, ironically, both were accused, by contemporaries, of Biblicism. Given what I've read of both, I'd say that both were genuine believers. But orthodox? I go back and forth on that one. If we consider C.S. Lewis to be orthodox, then I'll give a very tenative yes---but very tenative.

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

Bonhoeffer was certainly influenced by Barth away from the profoundly liberal theology of Bonhoeffer's proffessors such as Adolf Von Harnack, who would have denied that the Bible should be studied with the presupposition that God actually exists. How far away from Von Harnack, it can be hard to say. Bonhoeffer wrote some things in prison (while being regularly "interrogated" by the Gestapo) that bug folks. It seems to me that I would hate to have stuff I wrote privately to my best friend while subject to the cruelty of the Nazis in prison gone over with a theological fine toothed comb. I think you have to read Bonhoeffer for yourself, and come to your own conclusions. I found "The Cost of Discipleship" to be very inspiring. Otherwise, I would say "eat the meat, spit out the bones."

I did use this quote from Bonhoeffer with my Session the other day regarding how my views have changed on the the stay/GO issue with the PCUSA: "If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction." -Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

[J. Dean]

Bonhoeffer also had a quote I remember using: A God who allowed us to prove His existence would become an idol.

 

[Pilgrim]

I just reviewed that book for my Church's women's "book lunch." Thankfully, Union's relevance has declined to the point that no one had even heard of it. Which may not be surprising in the backwater where I live!

Huh. Union is well known by seminarians that are looking for almost ANY theological book. They have a very fine library. Too bad that it has become such a cess pool theologically.

Regarding the library, I can believe it. I've seen a good many volumes on Google Books that are from their library, as well as a number of other previously orthodox institutions in the Northeast.

 

[N. Eshelman]

I just reviewed that book for my Church's women's "book lunch." Thankfully, Union's relevance has declined to the point that no one had even heard of it. Which may not be surprising in the backwater where I live!

Huh. Union is well known by seminarians that are looking for almost ANY theological book. They have a very fine library. Too bad that it has become such a cess pool theologically.

Regarding the library, I can believe it. I've seen a good many volumes on Google Books that are from their library, as well as a number of other previously orthodox institutions in the Northeast.

It's the largest theological collection in the Western Hemisphere. HUGE! Burke Library

 

[Phil D.]

the largest theological collection in the Western Hemisphere

I've always heard this distinction ascribed to Princeton Theological Seminary (1,000,000+ works vs. Union's 700,000+), but I'd certainly settle for a week at either one!

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Pittsburgh Theological Library's collection is of similar size. The one thing I miss most about Pittsburgh.

 

[N. Eshelman]

Pittsburgh Theological Library's collection is of similar size. The one thing I miss most about Pittsburgh.

Dr. Kinneer said that this was one of the best things about PTS Library: It's always empty. LOL

 

[Rufus]

the largest theological collection in the Western Hemisphere

I've always heard this distinction ascribed to Princeton Theological Seminary (1,000,000+ works vs. Union's 700,000+), but I'd certainly settle for a week at either one!

That's it! We're starting our own Puritanboard library/study center somewhere.

 

[Marrow Man]

Went to Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary last week (not sure of the size, but didn't seem nearly as large as the one's mentioned above). Yes, it was also practically empty. But so was much of the campus.

 

[jwithnell]

Though his writings are not terribly familiar to me, my "take" on Mr. Bonhoeffer is that his earlier views (arguably about passivisim among other things) shifted as he came face-to-face with the brutal reality of Nazi Germany. The most orthodox among us would be sorely tested under such circumstances. He wrote and acted with unbelievable moral courage and fortitude, returning to Germany facing almost certain conflict and persecution under the regime. I'm hoping to be able to dig deeper into his life and work but have not been able to make it a priority (yet).

 

[Philip]

Otherwise, I would say "eat the meat, spit out the bones."

This is my attitude toward all theologians.