Borrowings from the Roman Mass in Seeker Churches

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Interesting thing - my wife and I went to a wedding, in which it was held in an apostate Roman Church and they performed the abomination of the Mass. The people kept eying us because we just sat there while they "did their thing" standing up and down, reciting things, etc. Well, there is a part right before "the sacrifice of the mass" that they stop and shake hands with their neighbor. The devil's servant, I mean priest, says, "Peace be with you, and offer each other a sign of peace." So the whole church goes social for about 5 minutes, then they go up and receive the death cookie.

This is something my wife, as a former Roman Catholic did in the past in her churches and masses. We were both on the same page and looked at each other with the same ideas with the whole "greet the neighbor next to you" thing that often happens in Evangelical church.

Have you ever thought about that correlation? If the Roman Church has been doing this, and the evangelical church now does it, is there a parallel or borrowing of those Romish things in contemporary Evangelicalism?

Maybe a better question is, "Where did shaking you neighbor's hand in the worship service ever begin?"

Thoughts?

[Edited on 2-19-2006 by C. Matthew McMahon]

 

[Peter]

Why are the people of God always copycating the ways of heathen? Why are Protestants infatuated with the badges of Popery?

2Ki 16:10 And king Ahaz went to Damascus to meet Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, and saw an altar that was at Damascus: and king Ahaz sent to Urijah the priest the fashion of the altar, and the pattern of it, according to all the workmanship thereof.

 

[Bladestunner316]

I dont know I dont see where its bad to greet people.

 

[Craig]

It could be that evangelicals are seeing the error of individualism and are, in a certain respect, recognizing the community of faith.

Also, many of our churches are dying: they want to appear friendly and approachable.

I never realized Rome did this, too...perhaps there is a correllation, but I'm leaning more toward appearing "friendly".

 

[Pilgrim]

I don't know if it's a conscious borrowing from Romanism or not, but I would be interested in learning the origin of this practice in evangelical churches. It's probably in part an attempt to get larger congregations to interact with each other since many come just before the service and leave immediately afterwards. It's also used to greet visitors, so I think this is probably done more in larger churches.

In many evangelical churches, the way the meet and greet is done is very distracting and disruptive. One large church near here "goes social" for about 5 minutes after the first hymn and prayer, and then the song leader starts up another hymn, and they are usually into the second verse before people settle down and pay attention to what's going on. This activity was supposed to be largely for the purpose of greeting visitors, but seldom did anyone even so much as tell me their name or ask for mine, which I also found very off-putting. An EPC I once attended had the meet and greet too, but it was a little more decent and in order (despite the church being mildly charismatic).

It's been about a decade, perhaps more, since I've participated in a communion service in the United Methodist Church of my youth, but I seem to recall them "going social" before partaking, similar to what Matt describes above. This church is pretty "high church".

 

[Bladestunner316]

Mine does it even during small evening services.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Just a couple thoughts...


Romans 15:7
Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

Matthew 25:35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

Acts 15:4
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders

Corinthians 13:12
Greet one another with a holy kiss

Colossians 4:15
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

1 Thessalonians 5:26
Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.

1 Peter 5:14
Greet one another with the kiss of love.Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

3 John 1:15
Peace be to you. The friends greet you. Greet the friends, every one of them.

 

[turmeric]

I think the Catholics did it because Paul said to greet everyone with a holy kiss. Therefore, the Anglicans and others who aspire to "high churchness" do it too. When the Evanjellyfish started doing it I don't know. It might be a coincidence - I don't grant the jellyfish enough sense of history to be imitating the Catholics, but I could be wrong.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Matt: Maybe, just maybe, the "passing of the peace" is a remnant of good old apostolic Christianity... sort of like the RCC's continued adherence to the Trinity and the hypostatic union.
Perhaps this is one thing they do that they get right in form, though they now attribute incorrect meaning to it... sort of like their practice of infant baptism.
After all, 1 Cor 13:12, 1 Thess 5:26, etc... were likely written by Paul to be read in the church, and though the prescription doesn't necessarily indicate that the geeting MUST be done in the context of a Lord's Day meeting, it certainly seems likely that it would be a "really convenient time" to do so, since that time represents the major gathering of all the members...

However: I think the biblical command can be kept by greeting prior to or after the service (or both!)... I'd guess that putting it in the middle of the service is a way of making up for lack of substance -- it fills time!

 

[Contra_Mundum]

For what it's worth,
I don't think the informal "fellowship" belongs between the call to worship and the benediction. To me, that's like stopping the battle for tea and crumpets after the bullets start flying, but before they stop.

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by turmeric
I think the Catholics did it because Paul said to greet everyone with a holy kiss. Therefore, the Anglicans and others who aspire to "high churchness" do it too. When the Evanjellyfish started doing it I don't know. It might be a coincidence - I don't grant the jellyfish enough sense of history to be imitating the Catholics, but I could be wrong.

I would be somewhat surprised to learn that this practice was self-consciously borrowed from Romanism

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
For what it's worth,
I don't think the informal "fellowship" belongs between the call to worship and the benediction. To me, that's like stopping the battle for tea and crumpets after the bullets start flying, but before they stop.

That's my view as well. There can be little true fellowship then anyway, in my opinion.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I do want to clarify what is going on here. I grew up Roman Catholic and can almost recite most of the liturgy from memory.

I have no affection for the RCC but I do want to caution that we need to characterize even a faulty practice fairly. In other words, it may well be a bad practice but to compare it improperly then all an RC apologist has to do is say: "Look! Those knuckleheads aren't even criticizing what the substance of the practice so how can they be right about the other thing..."

The greeting time is called the rite of peace. It is not really supposed to be a free for all. In the sense it is that way it mirrors modern Churches as many view it as a time to break loose. Until about 1980, I remember it being a time of pleasantries but not as crazy as it is expressed these days.

The rite of peace comes right after the Lord's Prayer and precedes the Eucharist. After praying: "Lord Jesus Christ, You said to your apostles: 'I leave you peace, my peace I give you.' Look not on our sins, but on the faith of Your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of Your kingdom where You live for ever and ever ", the priest wishes the people peace: "The peace of the Lord be with you always." The congregation answers "And also with you." He may then invite those present to offer each other the sign of peace. People usually offer a handshake but a hug is sometimes given (more modern) but they always say to each other: "Peace be with you."

Trust me when I say I don't have any affinity for the RCC but I am inclined to think this might have its roots in an ancient liturgy. The fact that it precedes the Eucharist might have been a place in the Worship service for people to reconcile themselves to their neighbor right before partaking of the Lord's Supper (which has been unquestionably corrupted).

I really don't see anything unBiblical in the act itself. In my estimation it is liturgically superior to the contemporary howdy doody time that breaks up a Service. Speaking the Lord's peace to another brother is something you just don't hear anymore and is something we ought to consider whether we should recapture (the common form of address in Israel was "Shalom"). I haven't really parsed the regulative principle on the matter but, if done properly, you could argue that the idea of leaving your sacrifice at the altar to reconcile yourself to your brother is Scriptural. If applied properly to the Lord's Supper might it be considered a proper part of worship? (I'm really asking, it's not rhetorical...)

[Edited on 2-19-2006 by SemperFideles]

 

[Robin]

Let's everybody try to remain calm......

in my opinion, the Reformed should take back the word "catholic" (small c!) It is the true Chruch's word, afterall.

The abomination in the Roman church is the "re-sacrifice" in the mass.

A more alarming correlation with the RC and Evangelicalism is the ever-increasing list of E's adopting new and different "sacraments" (alter calls; baby dedications; leading in the sinners prayer, Etc.) Evangelicalism's increasing Romish notion of "faith being a work, to prove/assure salvation." Ironically, the Protestant evangelical churches today are far from being "protestant" and would be horrified to hear they are almost exactly RC by design; celebrity popes, 'er pastors reign, untouchable, unaccountable -- afterall, the Holy Spirit is guiding them.

Something chilling I've noted (working at funerals/my vocation) is the language for both RC and Evangelical officiants has become the same! A quote: "God, only saves the best"....(meaning so-and-so/the deceased.) Nothing is heard of Christ's sacrifice - rather it is a "celebration" of the goodness of the person - and that assures us they're in heaven.

sigh

Don't get me going....there's much more that is much worse.

Robin

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Originally posted by Robin
The abomination in the Roman church is the "re-sacrifice" in the mass.

Robin

Robin,

I think the Treasury of Merits and the Service (Worship) given to Idols would qualify as abominable as well. I agree, however, that most of the RCC liturgy is pretty catholic. I think the rite of peace is probably one of them.

 

[Peter]

I don't know, maybe I'm being reactionary, but I dont think handshaking is an act of worship. Do we have a command from scripture to shake hands as an element of worship to God or do we interrupt public worship to shake hands? And I don't think this is an ancient ritual of the Catholic church. I'd be surprised if this was in the Tridentine Mass, this seems more like a hippy VII addition.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

It could be something that was there long before the Roman Church took it on. It may be part of Episcopalian worship which raised its head around the latter 4th century.

My reason for the post is 1) the Roman Chruch has been doing it "forever." and 2) evangelicalism seems to do it, and maybe, just maybe, there is a correlation. I'd like to know its roots.

 

[Plimoth Thom]

I thought it was romanists borrowing from the seeker sensitive. I was under the impression that the "peace be with you" shaking hands thing was a Vatican II change. I remember reading an autobiography for an english class in college where the author talked about how he grew up Catholic pre-Vatican II, left the church for awhile, then visited post-Vatican II and found this greeting innovation. He was very surprised and upset by this new part of the mass. According to him, before Vatican II, people didn't talk to anyone in mass, and the new practice of greeting each other seemed insincere and intrusive, If I recall correctly.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Our church, PCA, used to have a "time of greeting". At first they would have it sometime after the call to worship. Folks would meander around the auditorium for about 5 minutes until the pastor returned to the pulput. Then it got moved to before the call to worship. I guess somebody figured it really wasn't "worship", but it was still very disruptive, esp. when we have been encouraging folks to take their places early and pray/meditiate in preparation. Suddenly the preparation was broken with a call to "let's all greet one another", then noise and meandering.

Mercifully the practice just seemed to have disappeared without comment.

 

[JKLeoPCA]

Just seems to me that whenever you find the "meet and greet" time added to worship, whether in an evangelical church or other, it's an attempt to add to the experience of worship and show off that hey, we're a friendly group. I think its a key point in one of those "How to Grow a Mega-Church for Dummies" books.

Not sure who originally borrowed what from who, but it seems (from past evangelical days) pretty clear that it's just something in place to get visitors recognized, who sat in your usual spot. Maybe get some info from them in preparation for Tuesday night visitation, if they fill out that visitor card.

Why would they mind the "interruption" of worship? The stage has to prepare for the next act anyway. Worship in the evangelical context anyway is quite experiential. I've known longtime members to go home upset that, regardless of the message, no one asked how their week went.