Calling all Westminsterians (and TFU brothers as well)

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Thanks, brother. I’ll have to go through this when I have time.

For sake of the discussion, let’s say it is a month old, unregenerate (from God’s perspective) baby.

Technically, are they in the CoW substantially, and in the CoG administration?
"Technically" might better be expressed as "Speculatively." This is the realm of pure theory. We have an artificial child, which we have reduced to a single descriptive essence. I hear you saying, "I want to know concerning this representative child the way God knows."

Perhaps (speculating; we have no supervision of the independent moves of the Spirit, Jn.3:8) God has already begun a lengthy process of spiritual transformation in the one-month old child, with eternal blessedness in view. If God's elect, it will begin sometime by the due use of ordinary means. In baptism, as Presbyterians we know one thing for certain: God makes a visible claim on this infant person. He makes that claim in connection with the outward profession of the parent, a profession that states in part: "I belong to God."

Because God claims the parent in toto, everything that belongs to him belongs to God; and in biblical terms children belong to their parents. God does not ordain baptism for one's house, car, or monogrammed luggage; but ever since Abraham he has placed a special claim on image-bearing possessions (typically children) of his covenanted image bearers. He wants his Name on them also.

What is the point? That the baptism men perform or submit to isn't the spiritual reality to which it points, but is the sign designed to so point. Water baptism is the claim. A baptized person--of any age--has a claim placed on them, designating them as individuals who ought to be regarded as God's covenant possession. So, the covenant of grace is claiming that one-month old child, and his regenerate STATUS (if it could be known) is irrelevant. This is how the Presbyterian sees the matter.

All we know is the administration. Even in regard to adults, for baptism and profession, we simply take in some additional evidence being offered suitable to the person. We act not on the secret things but on what is revealed. We don't ask: "Has this person truly passed from death to life from God's perspective." We don't get to know things the way God knows. Someone who has nothing more than a said-faith is still in his sin, still bound to Adam and the claims of the covenant of works. But we still baptize the man who makes the profession, because we can't see the heart or future evidence beyond today. It is not for us to harbor doubts, supposing he may be substantially bound to works--rather like hopelessly attending a wedding when we're aware many marriages fail.

God's claim is announced in the man's baptism. He actually speaks through his church; not effecting spiritual reality by means of its work, but making meaningful even powerful statements. The administration, though visible, is not without weight or significance precisely because it is divine in origin, and has a God ordained connection with the spiritual realm. Thus it is highly offensive and wicked to despise his gracious covenant claim, exactly what Heb.6:4ff warns against. It isn't "just" administrative covenant connection that's in view; but as God's administration, it is a most serious claim.

Getting back to the one-month old child, who may be wholly unregenerate or may have already the beginning of his salvation conveyed to him on the earliest whispering breezes of the Spirit's mighty gusting to come. God administratively claims him, we baptize him, the baptism stands for the claim and "is" the claim of the covenant of grace. We are duty bound to go to battle with any other claims, be they substantive or administrative. In due season, through the Spirit's personal ministry and his church instruments, we desire to see such a child soon singing Christ's praises, understanding his need of such a Savior, praying to so august a Person who has stooped to claim him, and believing in the Lord Jesus for his entire and only hope of redemption. May he never willfully challenge that covenant claim so early staked to him.
 
"Technically" might better be expressed as "Speculatively." This is the realm of pure theory. We have an artificial child, which we have reduced to a single descriptive essence. I hear you saying, "I want to know concerning this representative child the way God knows."

Perhaps (speculating; we have no supervision of the independent moves of the Spirit, Jn.3:8) God has already begun a lengthy process of spiritual transformation in the one-month old child, with eternal blessedness in view. If God's elect, it will begin sometime by the due use of ordinary means. In baptism, as Presbyterians we know one thing for certain: God makes a visible claim on this infant person. He makes that claim in connection with the outward profession of the parent, a profession that states in part: "I belong to God."

Because God claims the parent in toto, everything that belongs to him belongs to God; and in biblical terms children belong to their parents. God does not ordain baptism for one's house, car, or monogrammed luggage; but ever since Abraham he has placed a special claim on image-bearing possessions (typically children) of his covenanted image bearers. He wants his Name on them also.

What is the point? That the baptism men perform or submit to isn't the spiritual reality to which it points, but is the sign designed to so point. Water baptism is the claim. A baptized person--of any age--has a claim placed on them, designating them as individuals who ought to be regarded as God's covenant possession. So, the covenant of grace is claiming that one-month old child, and his regenerate STATUS (if it could be known) is irrelevant. This is how the Presbyterian sees the matter.

All we know is the administration. Even in regard to adults, for baptism and profession, we simply take in some additional evidence being offered suitable to the person. We act not on the secret things but on what is revealed. We don't ask: "Has this person truly passed from death to life from God's perspective." We don't get to know things the way God knows. Someone who has nothing more than a said-faith is still in his sin, still bound to Adam and the claims of the covenant of works. But we still baptize the man who makes the profession, because we can't see the heart or future evidence beyond today. It is not for us to harbor doubts, supposing he may be substantially bound to works--rather like hopelessly attending a wedding when we're aware many marriages fail.

God's claim is announced in the man's baptism. He actually speaks through his church; not effecting spiritual reality by means of its work, but making meaningful even powerful statements. The administration, though visible, is not without weight or significance precisely because it is divine in origin, and has a God ordained connection with the spiritual realm. Thus it is highly offensive and wicked to despise his gracious covenant claim, exactly what Heb.6:4ff warns against. It isn't "just" administrative covenant connection that's in view; but as God's administration, it is a most serious claim.

Getting back to the one-month old child, who may be wholly unregenerate or may have already the beginning of his salvation conveyed to him on the earliest whispering breezes of the Spirit's mighty gusting to come. God administratively claims him, we baptize him, the baptism stands for the claim and "is" the claim of the covenant of grace. We are duty bound to go to battle with any other claims, be they substantive or administrative. In due season, through the Spirit's personal ministry and his church instruments, we desire to see such a child soon singing Christ's praises, understanding his need of such a Savior, praying to so august a Person who has stooped to claim him, and believing in the Lord Jesus for his entire and only hope of redemption. May he never willfully challenge that covenant claim so early staked to him.
Thank you for the clarification. I’ve got the big multi-contributor Covenant tome on order. I’m hoping it will answer a lot of my questions.
 
Normally you don't argue from historical silence, we weren't there we don't know what happened. But it is some pretty strong evidence. You would consider that some hoopla would have happened whenever it was started but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Amen! Amen! Amen!
 
1) What do you see as the fatal flaw in Confessional Baptist covenant theology?

2) How does the reformed view get this correct?

3) How is the Covenant of Grace not as Baptists believe it to be?
Hello @Lowlander,

It seems to me that the fatal flaw of the Confessional Baptist covenant theology lies in the negation of the distinction between substance and administration. In fine, for 1689 federalism, the covenant of grace is synonymous of redemption, and so wholly invisible. The covenant of grace is pure substance. In this way the ordinances instituted by God lose all objective aspect because they are necessarily dependent on the inward regeneration.
 
Does the Baptist view on baptism not say to children, 'You will receive the sign only when you possess the thing signified'? But is that how God's economy typically works? Does not God usually give promises to exhort the people to appropriate promises by faith? A picture of that is the conquest of the Promised Land.

The Presbyterian's view on baptism says to children, "This is God's objective promise, objectively sealed to you, to be appropriated by faith'. It is the most personal gospel promise for that child. The child's life onwards is to be dominated by the calls to appropriate that promise; through parents and through preaching. They are set apart from the world with that sign, and set apart from the world as they enjoy the benefits of being in the covenant community who are to labor in the means that the child might believe in the promise.
 
Could you expand on this?
I'm sure the brother will respond but I will chime in too with my understanding.

This actually gets down to the difference between why we call it a sacrament and baptists call it an ordinance.

An ordinance is something that you do, if for no other reason than because God has told you to do it. Notice how many Baptists describe baptism as a "step of obedience". You will note that the reformed do not view it merely this way. Yes, being baptized is a step of obedience, but that's not all it is. On the contrary, the word sacrament denotes an oath or pledge. We call it a sacrament because we believe God is testifying to something, is telling us something, is promising something, etc. during the Lord's supper and baptism.

Yes, we believe that these are, at minimum, ordinances...we do them because Christ has commanded them...but we go farther than that. They are not just ordinances, they are sacraments. We view baptism and the Lord's supper to be pronouncements of God to his people, to strengthen their faith. And does not that make sense? Otherwise, what is the purpose of these things? They simply become ceremonies that we do simply because God has told us. But they are meant to give us a visible picture of spiritual things, to strengthen our faith, and this based on the promises of God (that is why we cannot divorce the sacraments from the preaching of the word, as do the Roman Catholics).

So simply put, if the meaning and validity of the Lord's supper and baptism derive in God's pronouncements (objective), rather than in our spiritual state (subjective), then there is no question as to the validity of a particular sacrament. If an unregenerate minister happens to administer baptism to an unregenerate person (child or adult), it is still a valid baptism, because it is GOD saying "I wash sinners in the blood of Christ. I regenerate and baptize by the Holy Spirit., etc".
 
Could you expand on this?
For an example, some Baptists say that if you have been baptised when you were still an unbeliever (even an adult unbeliever) so you must be baptised again. The validity/reality of the baptism is dependent upon the reality of a true conversion. The same thing is true for the ministry.

Maybe not all baptists will agree with this view. But to admit that baptism can be valid and true without genuine faith is to admit that, in some sens, the new covenant is larger than only regenerated people.
 
For an example, some Baptists say that if you have been baptised when you were still an unbeliever (even an adult unbeliever) so you must be baptised again. The validity/reality of the baptism is dependent upon the reality of a true conversion. The same thing is true for the ministry.

Maybe not all baptists will agree with this view. But to admit that baptism can be valid and true without genuine faith is to admit that, in some sens, the new covenant is larger than only regenerated people.
I’ve struggled before with the Baptist inner experience of questioning my salvation at the moment of my baptism. And there’s no way to “solve” the problem; so in practice my baptism is actually a “useless” ordinance with regards to my spiritual edification. Instead, it’s a question mark; an uncertainty; and even a discouragement.
 
we call it a sacrament and baptists call it an ordinance.

Point of order: Historically, Confessional Reformed Baptists had no problem calling the sacraments, sacraments.

Yes, it's true that the 1689 calls them "ordinances" (and they are ordinances), but the actual men who wrote / edited the 1689 Confession also used the terms "ordinances" and "sacraments" interchangeably in their other writings. If you read the 1689 Confession's descriptions of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, it's sacramental.

The ONLY reason that Confessional Baptists used the term "ordinances" in the Confession was to appease those who had a faulty Romanist view what "sacrament" means. That's still a stumbling block today for some who come over from the RCC.
 
I’ve struggled before with the Baptist inner experience of questioning my salvation at the moment of my baptism. And there’s no way to “solve” the problem; so in practice my baptism is actually a “useless” ordinance with regards to my spiritual edification. Instead, it’s a question mark; an uncertainty; and even a discouragement.
I am sorry to hear that. This happens when the human commitment to God becomes the fundamental feature of the baptism.
 
I am sorry to hear that. This happens when the human commitment to God becomes the fundamental feature of the baptism.
This is where the rubber meets the road for me. Is baptism merely a man's public profession and declaration to God, or is it God's own profession and declaration to man? What is the pattern of God's consecration throughout the entire Bible, not just the New Testemant? Who did He consecrate and make holy for His purposes and why? These are all questions I have while studying the Word and reading these threads.
 
This is where the rubber meets the road for me. Is baptism merely a man's public profession and declaration to God, or is it God's own profession and declaration to man? What is the pattern of God's consecration throughout the entire Bible, not just the New Testemant? Who did He consecrate and make holy for His purposes and why? These are all questions I have while studying the Word and reading these threads.
These are good and important questions, indeed. It's easier to see baptism as a means of grace when the Lord's promise and commitment is first considered. May the Lord bless you in the consideration of these things.
 
Perhaps the Baptist hermeneutic is that once the age of covenant promises looking forward (OT) is over (in the New Testament), so also goes away the notion that the sign means objective promise which is to be subjectively apprehended. And also add to the mix, the view that the seed principle is no longer necessary once the Promised Seed of Abraham has come.

(Not all baptists may agree with the above)
 
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