Calling for God to send his fire down on us?

[BGF]

Mods, please move this thread if it belongs elsewhere. Friends, I need your help thinking through something. I've heard songs and prayers that call on God to send down his fire on us. I've done a cursory search in the Bible and can find no instance where fire, as it relates to God is a good thing. In most cases fire from God is connected to his wrath and judgment. Please point out where my thinking is wrong, but I believe it is ill advised to pray or sing in such a way. Perhaps there is biblical warrant for this kind of petition, but I sure can't find it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Luke 9:54 and forward comes to mind but note our Lord's response.

We do have warrant for prayers for God to remedy injustices we or the magistrate do not possess power to do so in the impreccatory Psalms.

But calling down holy fire from God? Unless that is meant to be the representation of the Holy Spirit as in Acts, I am not seeing it.

 

[BGF]

Luke 9:54 and forward comes to mind but note our Lord's response.

We do have warrant for prayers for God to remedy injustices we or the magistrate do not possess power to do so in the impreccatory Psalms.

But calling down holy fire from God? Unless that is meant to be the representation of the Holy Spirit as in Acts, I am not seeing it.

I agree, and would have no problem using this language (albeit very cautiously and only with full understanding of what it means) in the proper context. However, the language used in the songs/prayers always closely resembles those scriptures that call for judgment on unbelievers and somehow applies it in a positive sense for believers. Seems to be extraordinarily poor exegesis.

 

[TylerRay]

When attending "worship services" in a college ministry before being convinced of regulated worship, I often heard songs with lines like that (contemporary/charismatic "praise and worship" songs). Songs would often call down fire, call upon God to "consume us," and like statements.

I frankly think that it comes from a use of Biblical-sounding language with no Biblical context. The ill-studied authors seem to have just written whatever sounded like a scripturism to describe the emotional experiences that they were trying to inspire in their audiences.

 

[TylerRay]

On the other hand, it could be a reference to the fire which God sent down to ignite the coals of the altar, and so make provision for worship.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

In Ex.3, the fire did not consume the bush, which fact startled Moses.

In Dan.3, the three witnesses were preserved unburned in the fiery furnace.

Is.43:2, "...when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you."

Lk.3:16, "John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Act.2:3, "And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them."

Lev.9:24 or 1Ki.18:38 speak of the power of the presence of the Lord upon the sacrifices of God's people--which was for their blessing. "Our God is a consuming fire," Heb.12:29, cf. Dt.4:24. But also 9:3, "Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the LORD your God. He will destroy them and subdue them before you." And Is.33:14, "The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: 'Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?'" Lam.2:3, "He has cut down in fierce anger all the might of Israel; he has withdrawn from them his right hand in the face of the enemy; he has burned like a flaming fire in Jacob, consuming all around."



I suppose the enthusiastic ditties of the modern ecstatics are prayers for a revivalistic experience paralleling the Day of Pentecost. Since it was a one-time event, I don't think people should be praying for a repeat of that hour exactly. Even when Acts records the extension of the original blessing to the Samaritans (Act.8:14-17) and Gentile (Act.10:44-45) the fiery-phenomenon does not seem to reappear. But in the days of ordinary workings of the Spirit (these latter 19+ centuries) prayers for new deluges seem to soft-pedal the residual power of the original gift. 2Ki.2:14, "Where is the LORD, the God of Elijah?" He has not left us, nor has his power diminished.

Is it right to pray to see the effects of the power of God at work in conversion and other help as needed? I think it is, or can be. And if those prayers are couched properly in the language of the disciples' patience in the ten days of waiting they endured, and of the answer when it came, it doesn't rub me the wrong way. However, too often those prayers seem to be raised in a different frame of mind: a dissatisfied frame that is not really patient with the divine timetable. People seem to think they should be able to pray down the Spirit of God, as if he were summoned by the intensity of their desires. Such folks see a receding tide of Christian "advance" as a sign of individual and ecclesiastical failure of nerve. Do people wish for unmediated experience of God? Be careful what you pray for.

People feel a desire for significance. But simply being included in Christ's kingdom does not feel significant enough. The self-esteem movement (now exported even to the third-world) has taught many Christians to think that they are entitled to worldly recognition. Jer.45:5, "And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest."

 

[BGF]

On the other hand, it could be a reference to the fire which God sent down to ignite the coals of the altar, and so make provision for worship.

Something to consider.

 

[BGF]

On the other hand, it could be a reference to the fire which God sent down to ignite the coals of the altar, and so make provision for worship.

Something to consider.

Tyler, I'm looking for that reference and it's eluding me. Can you help me out?

 

[Physeter]

These songs are an attempt on their part to try and repeat what happened in Acts. I have attended services in the past where songs like this were sung. The Holy Spirit is described in several places as fire.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4

Quench not the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:11-12

Fire is also associated with God's presence.


29 For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29 Here God is described as fire.
38 For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys. Exodus 40:38
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18

There are many more examples that I can dig up. Fire in general is associated with God.
Should we sing these songs? I am not so sure. They are theologically vacuous. Most of the time when fire came down it was in judgment.
Hymns should praise and edify. The older hymns of the church where theologically rich, speaking of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. I just sang recently Amazing Grace, a theologically rich hymn that speaks of God's Grace toward us.

 

[BGF]

The Holy Spirit is described in several places as fire.

I see this as metaphorical and descriptive and perhaps that is how these phrases, whether in song or prayer, are operating.

Fire is also associated with God's presence.

Yes, usually in the sense of his holiness or judgment and wrath.

The use of this language seems to be a mash-up of biblical language with no thought as to the original and differing usages. For example, we are called salt, " “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot." (Matthew 5:13). Shall I then ask God to make me a pillar of salt so that I may be a witness to the spirit of Sodom and Gomorrah in our age? This kind of thinking makes Lot's wife a spiritual hero.

 

[Jack K]

To pray for the Spirit's work in the church (let's do so patiently, not demandingly or as thrill-seekers) is a good practice that reflects a solid theological understanding. If that is what is meant by asking God to send fire down on us, then it is a good prayer.

Don't we want our hearts to burn within us as we hear the gospel, as happened to the disciples on the road to Emmaus? Don't we want to fan into flame the gifts of God, as Paul urged Timothy? To recognize that this sort of growth is the Spirit's work, and therefore is a "fire" we must seek through prayer, is a mark of Christian maturity.

Some surely have erroneous teachings about the nature of spiritual blessings in mind as they sing or pray such things. But I see no problem in the language itself.

 

[earl40]

Is it right to pray to see the effects of the power of God at work in conversion and other help as needed? I think it is, or can be. And if those prayers are couched properly in the language of the disciples' patience in the ten days of waiting they endured, and of the answer when it came, it doesn't rub me the wrong way. However, too often those prayers seem to be raised in a different frame of mind: a dissatisfied frame that is not really patient with the divine timetable. People seem to think they should be able to pray down the Spirit of God, as if he were summoned by the intensity of their desires. Such folks see a receding tide of Christian "advance" as a sign of individual and ecclesiastical failure of nerve. Do people wish for unmediated experience of God? Be careful what you pray for.

People feel a desire for significance. But simply being included in Christ's kingdom does not feel significant enough. The self-esteem movement (now exported even to the third-world) has taught many Christians to think that they are entitled to worldly recognition. Jer.45:5, "And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest."

What a wonderful post. What I am learning is that the "divine timetable" is indeed ticking at the cadence He desires. This not only includes How He works in the righteous but also the unrighteous. Is it no wonder why patience is a virtue that many lack in the modern ecstatics. If one has his eyes opened you can see both mercy and judgment going on before those eyes, and we can see this by looking at what Marvin Gaye said in his song "What's Going On".

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Coming from a charismatic background, I'm very familiar with these songs and the mindset behind them- it's the desire for experiences like those of Israel with God when his "manifest presence" showed up; the call is for some sensual experience. The call for fire just sounds good; the songwriters don't expect people to know their Bibles well enough to realize that this request doesn't make sense. I will not go on to speak of why we should sing the Psalms instead.

 

[TylerRay]

On the other hand, it could be a reference to the fire which God sent down to ignite the coals of the altar, and so make provision for worship.

Something to consider.

Tyler, I'm looking for that reference and it's eluding me. Can you help me out?

I was thinking of Lev. 9, but it actually says:

23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the people. 24 And there came a fire out from before the Lord, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.

However, check out the following from I Kings 18 and from I Chronicles 21:

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. 37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. 38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

26 And David built there an altar unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the Lord; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.

 

[BGF]

On the other hand, it could be a reference to the fire which God sent down to ignite the coals of the altar, and so make provision for worship.

Something to consider.

Tyler, I'm looking for that reference and it's eluding me. Can you help me out?

I was thinking of Lev. 9, but it actually says:

23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the people. 24 And there came a fire out from before the Lord, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.

However, check out the following from I Kings 18 and from I Chronicles 21:

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. 37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. 38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

26 And David built there an altar unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the Lord; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.

Is it fair to say that the offerings are pleasing to God therefore he sends his fire, but the fire itself is a manifestation of judgment? What is the offering but a substitution for the one who offers (ultimately fulfilled in Christ, who experienced the fullness of God's wrath)?

 

[BGF]

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4

I would classify this as descriptive simile therefore I don't include this in the conversation.

Quench not the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19

I wouldn't include this, either for similar reasons. This is metaphorical.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:11-12

This one is more interesting. Here John is speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees and the context is that of burning unfruitful trees and useless chaff, while the wheat is gathered into the barn. Even though fire in used in conjunction with baptism and the Holy Spirit, I believe that it is a judgment fire reserved for those unrepentant souls who do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

29 For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29 Here God is described as fire.
38 For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys. Exodus 40:38
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18

These verses show, again the judgment and holiness of God. The consuming fire is a destroying fire. The fire on the tabernacle could be a comforting reminder of God's presence in their midst but it also kept people away from His immediate presence. The Sinai incident displayed God's glory and holiness, but again, none dared approach or they would be put to death.

The theme of fire consistently points to God's holiness and wrath. The theme of preserving his saints in the midst of fire points to his grace. To ask for the fire of God to fall down is to ask for judgment. For the saints, the judgment has been poured out on Christ thus preserving us from the "fire" of God's wrath. So, knowing that Jesus has satisfied God's wrath, and that judgment is still reserved for the unrepentant, I'll refrain from seeking God's fire.

 

[Jack K]

I'm not sure why you seem set on finding a single way to understand God's fire in Scripture. I'll grant that the most common context for fire from God in the Bible is judgment. But references to fire are common enough that there are also several other contexts. Fire can indicate purification, or God's presence, or the Spirit's power, or the approval of an offering. I'm reminded of Jonathan Edwards' sermon on Christ the Sun of Righteousness, in which he points out that the glory of the sun is due to the fact that it brings both life and death, healing and judgment. So too with smaller fires from God.

Fire is a familiar, potent force. It's no surprise that biblical imagery uses fire in several different ways. I suspect it's a mistake to try to make every reference to fire from God fit the judgment motif. The use of imagery in Scripture is seldom as one-dimensional as we might like it to be, and this is part of the Bible's beauty.

 

[BGF]

Jack, I'm not necessarily set on finding it. It's just what I see when I read scripture. I asked our music director what he thought of it, in the context of a certain song we both know, and he says he is not comfortable with the phrasing either, and for the same reasons. He makes allowances for it because many coming out of broad evangelical and charismatic traditions are used to the language. I'll think on what you said. Perhaps fire is uses as broadly as you say, but what I am referencing is specific phrasing that is reminiscent of judgment. This was merely an attempt at friendly discussion on something that I was curious about. I'll drop it if it has run its course.

 

[Jack K]

It's a fine discussion, and not a bad question, in my opinion. I just doubt there's a single motif into which all references to fire from God must fit. In fact, fire from God seems in some places to have a double effect—judgment on God's enemies and sanctification or power upon his people. I thought of Malachi partly because Malachi 3 is one example of fire that sounds, to me, both fearsome and beneficial. Yet I don't think we can apply that framework everywhere we see fire from God in the Bible. My two cents.

 

[BGF]

Thanks, Jack. I'll look into Malachi and look at it from your perspective.