Calvin and the Anabaptists

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Matt, his brother Dante, and myself were discussing our options in regards to our church situation; not that we are even considering leaving, we're just so let down by what the PCA is involved in and the way they do church.
Dante suggested that we return to Emmanuel Baptist Church our previous home. Dante said, "You know the liturgical setting is much more reformed and to your liking there. Why are you tolerating the intolerable- just come back to Emmanuel?" We agreed that the liturgical setting is better and the attitude much more pious, however, I suggested to him that it would dismantle our presbyterian witness and that conviction which we stood on initially. Doing something like this is part of the major problem today. It ignites a flame below the premise that everyone is right; that there is no standard and essentially we all are flying on the seat of our pants in this regard. We pondered the idea that this view is contemporary and that the forefathers of our faith would have reeled over the suggestion. Why was it not acceptable then, and today it is more of a acceptable practice. Is it reflective of complacency? Were the refomers wrong in this regard? Why were the anabaptists run out of Switzerland? Are todays credo's contemporary anabaptists?

~Would Calvin had resorted to attending an anabaptist assembly if in our situation? Would it even have been a consideration?
 
Scott,

To answer your last question, see Dr. Francis Nigel Lee's study of the Anabaptists and Calvin's views on them, The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren: http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/

In sum, I can't imagine Calvin willingly joining in worship with the Anabaptists under any circumstances. As to whether there is any justification today in America for a Reformed Presbyterian to join a Reformed Baptist church, with all due respect to our Reformed Baptist brothers (I think very highly of John Bunyan and Charles Spurgeon and others), I think that is going in the wrong direction.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
~Would Calvin had resorted to attending an anabaptist assembly if in our situation? Would it even have been a consideration?
You would probably know better than I about Calvin, but I'd guess that attending the anabaptist assembly wouldn't have been an option he'd consider for very long. I'd guess that he'd work within the leadership and try and reason (reform) with them from the scriptures if there were certain practices that he didn't feel were proper. If that didn't work, he may have tried to start his own church, kind of like what you guys did.

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Dante suggested that we return to Emmanuel Baptist Church our previous home. Dante said, "You know the liturgical setting is much more reformed and to your liking there. Why are you tolerating the intolerable- just come back to Emmanuel?" We agreed that the liturgical setting is better and the attitude much more pious, however, I suggested to him that it would dismantle our presbyterian witness and that conviction which we stood on initially.

In a sense it'd be quite a witness to the Presbyterian brethren if you returned to Emmanuel Baptist church, especially if they knew you left the Baptist church because of your Presbyterian convictions. It'd show just how strong your convictions are about the regulative principle of worship and how important it is. (assuming that's what's most intolerable about your present church).

I understand that when you joined this Presbyterian church you made a commitment to that church, so going back to Emmanuel Baptist is just sort of an intellectual exercise. I've always heard, and read in the scriptures, that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Is the reverse ever true? Many of the people at your church probably aren't as well read in the reformed faith as you guys are and probably don't have as strong convictions about the regulative principle, etc. Wasn't it the conviction of the reformers that God can use godly men (and women) to reform a church, which is preferable to leaving?
 
Bob,
I agree, that is why I said we are not even considering leaving. It was just thinking out loud and giving Dante something to consider.

Andrew, I agree. Thats the point. I am very familiar with Dr. Lee's writings.

[Edited on 11-13-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Matt, his brother Dante, and myself were discussing our options in regards to our church situation; not that we are even considering leaving, we're just so let down by what the PCA is involved in and the way they do church.

Scott, I don't have anything really to contribute to solving your dilemma, but I do want to tell you that you are not alone in your disappointment with the direction that the PCA seems to be going.

With respect to denominations, which Presbyterian denomination do you think would be a better option, if a church was considering leaving the PCA? I realize that's a tough question; if I phrase it like this I think I might get my point across better:

Which present day denomination most closely represents the direction that you wish the PCA would take?
 
Originally posted by RickyReformed
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Matt, his brother Dante, and myself were discussing our options in regards to our church situation; not that we are even considering leaving, we're just so let down by what the PCA is involved in and the way they do church.

Scott, I don't have anything really to contribute to solving your dilemma, but I do want to tell you that you are not alone in your disappointment with the direction that the PCA seems to be going.

With respect to denominations, which Presbyterian denomination do you think would be a better option, if a church was considering leaving the PCA? I realize that's a tough question; if I phrase it like this I think I might get my point across better:

Which present day denomination most closely represents the direction that you wish the PCA would take?


To be quite honest Rick, by experience, I cannot answer that question as I have only been aligned with the PCA for a short time. The PCA churches which I have visited look fine initially. Only after a short season does one see the tree's for the forest. Based upon experience alone, I would have to say, as far as church piety and liturgy go, Emmanuel baptist is a fine model. The only problem with the model is that their liturgy is not reformed in the technical sense, but the way they do church is to be applauded.
 
Interesting comments Scott. I feel in a similar predicament at times in the church I'm at. Am I walking in humility by staying and serving those who I can or am I compromising ?. Last year I considered going to Emmanuel baptist, but by staying where I'm at I've been able to do so much ministry, and as a result I have seen people built up in the faith. I think at the end of the day it's what best serves the purposes of God's Kingdom (not that I mean to come across as a pragmatist). I ask myself, who's interests am I really looking out for?, my own or God's.

VanVos


[Edited on 13-11-2004 by VanVos]
 
Paul,
I don't know if reading anything will help our situation. We are clear on when we would be responsible to depart from the church where we sit. The how is simple. The only problem is, if we did listen to Bahnsen's sermon, how could we apply it; we are in a spiritual wasteland in regards to finding a church that is even attempting to align themnselves with scripture and history.
 
I read Matt's thread for prayer concerning this. So I read a little concerning this matter of being frustrated Scott.

What can you guys find to be thankful for at your Church? I would start there and give God thanks. I'm sure God is doing something there. You guys weren't placed there by God for no reason at all. You are all to gifted to just be floundering around, ungratefu,l and dissatisfied. Sounds like the Devil is trying to ground you guys. Fight the good fight of faith. God has a will for you all. Scrub toilets if need be. Pray always. I'm sure you guys aren't above being a true leader by serving and being loving.

The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. 1Peter 5:1-4

Train the younger men. Be that Example. God will honor it.

BE ENCOURAGED!!!!!!! God is saving people and wants you guys to do your job of growing them up in the FAITH as a spiritual father should do.

I don't mean to sound like a know it all. I believe in what God has done in your lives and hope you aren't being dragged down by the churches stupidity. I understand Church stupidity. :banghead: I have been a part of it also.:chained: God overcomes it. Providence!

Randy

[Edited on 11-17-2004 by puritancovenanter]
 
You have made a fundamental error Scott in your thinking. A Reformed Baptist church is no where near the Anabaptists of Calvin's day.

As for your "Presbyterian" witness.....what about your witness for Christ? Denomination aside - is it worth it to endure a sick church when there is a healthy one down the road that simply has a different view of baptism? Perhaps you are making too large a deal out of baptism!

And one last note, as for Lee's work - hogwash and horseslop. He would throw all Baptists in prison and give their kids to Presbyterians so that they might be baptized and raised in "Christian" homes. Why waste your time and energy reading him when all you get is a bad history lesson, prejudice, and outright hatred toward fellow believers? Reformed Bapitsts are not a cult nor do they deny the gospel. In many ways they are more reformed than many "Reformed" denominations are too!

Phillip
 
Phillip, I'm personally not attempting to compare the Anabaptists to modern Baptists or start a debate on baptism, but I do want to clarify that the paedo- and credo- doctrines of baptism affect much more than merely one's belief about whether or not infants should be baptized. The two viewpoints have many other implications and influences on one's entire theology as well, including the meaning of baptism and the covenantal structure of history and the Bible. I'm not saying credobaptists don't believe in its basic covenantal structure as well, but only noting that the implications of one's doctrine of baptism go well beyond the surface question of whether infants should be baptized, hence the significant differences.
 
Originally posted by pastorway
You have made a fundamental error Scott in your thinking. A Reformed Baptist church is no where near the Anabaptists of Calvin's day.

As for your "Presbyterian" witness.....what about your witness for Christ? Denomination aside - is it worth it to endure a sick church when there is a healthy one down the road that simply has a different view of baptism? Perhaps you are making too large a deal out of baptism!

And one last note, as for Lee's work - hogwash and horseslop. He would throw all Baptists in prison and give their kids to Presbyterians so that they might be baptized and raised in "Christian" homes. Why waste your time and energy reading him when all you get is a bad history lesson, prejudice, and outright hatred toward fellow believers? Reformed Bapitsts are not a cult nor do they deny the gospel. In many ways they are more reformed than many "Reformed" denominations are too!

Phillip

:ditto: to what Chris said.

Phillip,
Forgive me if I sent the impression that I was saying that the present day credo is an anabaptist; I was not. As 'Lee' does infer, they are in fact the anabaptists step children in many ways. Question: Historically speaking, what was it that caused such a uproar in Geneva when the anabaptists disented? What was the disention all about? Did Calvin and his colleagues ruin their witness in throwing the anabaptists out of Switzerland? Did the anabaptists ruin their witness in disenting from the catholic church? Did their disention equate with apostasy?

My issue is not with my loyalty to Presbyterianism as it is with Gods covenant. My family has covenanted with this particular church. As I have mentioned, I did not really jump on the band wagon to depart; I was settled in staying come hell or high water. My wife mentioned she is not learning anything. My reply to her was to sit at the feet of Jesus and pray. She is learning much here at home. I cannot return to my previous church for many reasons. One particularly in that I expressed a conviction previously. That conviction has not changed. If I return with my tail between my legs, what does that say for truth? It smacks of double mindedness and relativism.

As far as my witness for Christ goes; I am a hot flame for Christ. My new job allows for me to speak in his behalf. To love those around me whom are theologically different. I rarely have anything othrer than Him on my lips or mind; I am consumed by my savior; praise be to God!

You are correct Phillip. In terms of piety, my previous chgurch is more refomed. Technically, they are a horse of a different color.

I thank God for what he is doing in my family's life right now. he is doing something, and to me, that is better than if he was doing nothing.

[Edited on 11-17-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
And rest assured that I am continuing to pray for you and Matt and your families as you seek His will. I know you are and will continue to be obedient!!

I also understand that the baptism issue is much deeper than who to splash with water if you think splashing is even baptism..... :D

but at times we let secondary issues determine fellowship as the foot says to the hand, "Too bad you are not a foot, if you were a foot you would be a part of the body."

1 Cor 12:12-27

Phillip
 
Scott,

You said that your wife is not learning anything in your current church. I assume you know that being part of a group of believers is not JUST about learning. An important part of being in the local body is to edify and build each other up. So I would echo someone elses comment - what can you thank God for and what ways can you build up the local body you are part of? Do you not want to be in it for the long haul? It may take 10 years for the group of believers you are with to begin to get the same vision you and your buddies have for worship etc.

Duke.
 
Originally posted by duke
Scott,

You said that your wife is not learning anything in your current church. I assume you know that being part of a group of believers is not JUST about learning. An important part of being in the local body is to edify and build each other up. So I would echo someone elses comment - what can you thank God for and what ways can you build up the local body you are part of? Do you not want to be in it for the long haul? It may take 10 years for the group of believers you are with to begin to get the same vision you and your buddies have for worship etc.

Duke.

Phillip,
Thank you for your input. I agreee wholeheartely with you. In fact, that was my point the other day to my wife. Why do you need to learn something everytime you go to church. We are commanded to worship God; worship God! Sit at Jesus' feet and pray, worship Him!
 
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