Calvin vs. Murray on Baptism

Who is right concerning baptism- Calvin or Murray?

  • Calvin is right, of course.

    Votes: 6 20.7%
  • Murray totally proves Calvin is wrong!

    Votes: 9 31.0%
  • I am a Baptist.

    Votes: 14 48.3%

  • Total voters
    29
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Kevin

Puritan Board Doctor
BTW I DO ASSUME that Johns baptism is included in the OT washings. WHY NOT?

Mark points to John's ministry as the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Sorry Brian but I can't see how that justifies a new sacrament that exists only for the months of Johns ministry.

If you are correct then the heresy investigation commission that came to check him out would have had evidence that he was violating the OT rituals. This was a capital crime & his enemies certaily did not lack the motivation to try & convict.
 

brianeschen

Puritan Board Junior
BTW I DO ASSUME that Johns baptism is included in the OT washings. WHY NOT?

Mark points to John's ministry as the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Sorry Brian but I can't see how that justifies a new sacrament that exists only for the months of Johns ministry.

If you are correct then the heresy investigation commission that came to check him out would have had evidence that he was violating the OT rituals. This was a capital crime & his enemies certaily did not lack the motivation to try & convict.
Admittedly, I have not thought through the issue very much and I find this discussion very helpful.

I have a couple questions that would be helpful for me to have answered: 1) Where is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins in the Old Covenant? Is it the sprinkling of the water of purification found in Numbers 8 and 19?

2) Is it different or the same as what is promised in Ezekial 36?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Edit: I just found that the water of purification in the OC had the ashes of a heifer in it according to Numbers 19.
 
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Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Quote from Brian
Where is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins in the Old Covenant?

Surely this expression is used of John's baptism in order to distinguish it from Jewish Old Covenant baptisms, not to distinguish it from Christian Trinitarian -formula baptism as might be first thought when coming accross this expression?

We do not know what formula John used, but what would prevent it from being Trinitarian, or approximately Trinitarian, and anyway surely all that was required is that it be what he was told to do by the Lord?
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
So from what I am gathering from Richard and ArmourBearer...John's baptism used the Trinitarian formula? If this can be proven, i'll be convinced of their and Calvin's interpretation.

With Richard, I can't presume to know the formula the Baptiser used; concerning the relationship of the Trinity to John's baptism, as the fathers would say, if you want to learn about the Trinity, go to the Jordan.
 
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