Can pain be like fasting?

[JennyG]

I want to ask the wise about the idea of considering pain (willingly suffered) as a kind of prayer, like fasting.
I didn't think of that myself, but it seems to be a common RC idea (ex RC's can set me right if that's a misconception).
I don't mean the active inflicting of pain on themselves, as in flagellation and so on - some RC's also promote the idea of "offering" the kind of pain which isn't chosen by the sufferer but just happens, - a headache say, or a bad back - as a sort of help or backing up of prayer. Which is somewhat like how I think I understand fasting, except that you do choose to fast.


My question is, can such an idea have any place in Reformed thinking?

 

[christiana]

If one experiences pain and can find no relief from it and it becomes chronic then submitting to it might be a form of 'sharing in His suffering' I would think and make it more bearable. I would never choose to go there but if it would be unavoidable then I would ask for His grace to bear it.
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.1 Cor 10:13

temptation/trial/suffering

 

[pesterjon]

"Seeking pain out" as a "spiritual discipline" seems to be a much different prospect than responding submissively to pain allowed by God to shape and mold you.

Our personal experience lately has involved a lot of pain, as our infant daughter has been going through brain cancer (CaringBridge / sophiahope / Welcome). I do not see pain as a substitute for prayer, but a motivation to pray and a definitive deepening of prayer. Think about Jesus in the garden before his death (Mark 14).

 

[Herald]

Jenny, the type of pain you are suggesting is a form of asceticism that has gnostic roots. The theory being that in order to attain a deeper spiritual level a person needs to live a life of austere self-discipline. Extreme forms of asceticism include pain as a form of purifying. Jonathan rightly pointed out that "seeking out pain" is much different than "responding submissively to pain allowed by God to shape and mold you." Another thing, the bible does not provide a positive command to afflict ourselves with pain in order to draw closer to God. Fasting is designed for that purpose. With a right heart attitude, fasting allows a person to put aside their personal cares and concerns in order to meditate upon the Lord.

 

[JennyG]

I do not see pain as a substitute for prayer, but a motivation to pray and a definitive deepening of prayer.

I know self-inflicted pain is unbiblical.. "deepening of prayer" is more what I was thinking of. I suppose the bottom line may be that if one is involuntary and the other voluntary, pain and fasting can't be equated.
Jonathan, I'll be praying for your little girl

 

[Scott1]

I don't think we would say pain or denial, in and of themselves are spiritual virtues. If they are done as part of reliance on God's grace for completion, then they may become witnesses and testimony to others.

A willingness to suffer for what is right is an attitude spoken of in several contexts in Scripture.

Bearing pain and difficulty with good disposition, as a reflection of what God has and is doing in your life can be a powerful witness.

 

[JennyG]

I've been thinking over what everyone says but I'm still not quite certain if I understand what the answer is to my original question.
I never imagined self-inflicted pain had a place in reformed thinking, which is why I differentiated the two kinds of pain carefully.

Roman Catholics seem to have an idea that if they "offer" (involuntary) pain to God, it can count almost as prayer for this or that cause that they have in mind, maybe are praying for at the same time.
That doesn't seem to me a million miles away from the thoroughly Biblical practice of fasting - which is not in itself prayer, but does, if I'm understanding it rightly, somehow strengthen or reinforce prayer. That's why I was wondering if there could be any merit in that RC way of thinking about pain, and I realise I'm still not sure...maybe I'm just being slow

 

[puritan628]

With a right heart attitude, fasting allows a person to put aside their personal cares and concerns in order to meditate upon the Lord.

Bearing pain and difficulty with good disposition, as a reflection of what God has and is doing in your life can be a powerful witness.

I've been encouraged by three distinct models when it comes to enduring pain (both physical and emotional).

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, of course, suffered beyond what any of us in free countries can even begin to contemplate. And He did so willingly.

The Apostle Paul endured so much physical pain throughout his life that again, most of us cannot really relate. He was stoned, he was beset with chronic pain, and he recognized his own weaknesses. A great book for gaining insight into the life of Paul is Paul by Walter Wangerin, Jr. (2000). Zondervan.

Finally, my personal favorite, because I can relate so much to her sufferings, is Anne Bradstreet (1612-1672), Puritan poet, mother of 8, wife of Massachusetts Governor Simon Bradstreet, daughter of Massachusetts Governor Thomas Dudley. At early ages (around 7 or 8 and then again around 12 or 13) Anne Bradstreet suffered disease that left her with lifelong physical weakness and episodes of infirmity. In her writings she talks about how God sees her through these episodes, after first seeing fit to let her live through the diseases contracted in childhood.

I began having migraine headaches when I was 12 years old. Until about 10 years ago, there was no remedy for the migraine cycle of pain; only narcotic to help the patient sleep through the episode. Then, with the blessed advance in medicine, scientists were able to create a medicine that actually interrupts the cycle. The point to my own experience is this: I've learned the meaning of "we bring a sacrifice of praise" because it has truly been a sacrifice at times to offer up worship and praise in the midst of seemingly unbearable suffering. God has given me grace me to bear it.

 

[JennyG]

With a right heart attitude, fasting allows a person to put aside their personal cares and concerns in order to meditate upon the Lord.

Bearing pain and difficulty with good disposition, as a reflection of what God has and is doing in your life can be a powerful witness.

I've been encouraged by three distinct models when it comes to enduring pain (both physical and emotional).

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, of course, suffered beyond what any of us in free countries can even begin to contemplate. And He did so willingly.

The Apostle Paul endured so much physical pain throughout his life that again, most of us cannot really relate. He was stoned, he was beset with chronic pain, and he recognized his own weaknesses. A great book for gaining insight into the life of Paul is Paul by Walter Wangerin, Jr. (2000). Zondervan.

Finally, my personal favorite, because I can relate so much to her sufferings, is Anne Bradstreet (1612-1672), Puritan poet, mother of 8, wife of Massachusetts Governor Simon Bradstreet, daughter of Massachusetts Governor Thomas Dudley. At early ages (around 7 or 8 and then again around 12 or 13) Anne Bradstreet suffered disease that left her with lifelong physical weakness and episodes of infirmity. In her writings she talks about how God sees her through these episodes, after first seeing fit to let her live through the diseases contracted in childhood.

I began having migraine headaches when I was 12 years old. Until about 10 years ago, there was no remedy for the migraine cycle of pain; only narcotic to help the patient sleep through the episode. Then, with the blessed advance in medicine, scientists were able to create a medicine that actually interrupts the cycle. The point to my own experience is this: I've learned the meaning of "we bring a sacrifice of praise" because it has truly been a sacrifice at times to offer up worship and praise in the midst of seemingly unbearable suffering. God has given me grace me to bear it.

Thank you for that, Laura. It's beginning to come clear. there is a relation between suffering and prayer...just maybe not so cut and dried as I was trying to make it

 

[Cato]

Jenny, I have not read through this thread but Pain & Suffering do have redemptive qualities. As a woman then & especially perhaps a woman who may have experienced childbirth, you would have understood something that I could never understand; Namely The intimate connection between pain & life.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

OK I see where your coming from with the Roman Catholic analogy. Most modern RC's today inflict pain on themselves as a prayer to God (like flogging) but it's in how they will offer it up as a prayer that may distinguish them.....is that what your referring to?

If it is then I would prefer to discuss that privately with you vs a public forum.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

Add "Do Not" to inflict pain....

 

[puritan628]

Here's another way to put it ... in song. I'm not claiming that this group of this song perfectly reflects the reformed faith, but there's one line in particular that seems to be relevant to this discussion. "What would I say if you brought down the rain and everyday I walk through the pain, my heart would still say ..."

[video=youtube;jj0vdV-Q2I0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0vdV-Q2I0[/video]

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