Can Satan Put Thoughts In Your Head?

[TheMantis]

The serpent was a manifestation of the Devil who had already fallen:



Original sin has nothing to do with the Devil's sin but Adam's first sin. Satan could have lied to our first parents and Adam could've said "Get behind me, Satan" and the human race wouldn't have fallen. Satan is not our federal head. Nor are we physical children of Satan but of Adam.

If Adam and Eve only knew good, and part of the temptation of the fruit was to be like God knowing good and evil, if creation and the garden were good and at this time sinless, how would Adam have known the serpent was harmful and intended harm? How would he have had a concept of sin having never committed one or seen one committed. to suggest he could have said, "get behind me, Satan," however logical we feel that is reading from today, is foolish to suggest that.

 

[TheMantis]

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44 KJV).

Satan was a murder from the beginning and is the father of lies. His deception in the garden was a murderous lie--an untruth intended to result in the death of our first parents.

Are you saying that Satan was innocent when he decieved Eve into eating the forbidden fruit? He is called 'subtil' (v1), and it is said that he 'beguiled' Eve (v13).

Depending on how the events in the Garden of Eden are interpreted and understood, the serpent may or may not not have been innocent when tricking Eve. Satan's presence in the Garden casts doubt on the idea that God's description of the Garden is a flawless, sinless paradise, even though it does hint at the existence of evil and sin. Even though the serpent was a major factor in the fall, Adam and Eve are ultimately accountable for the original sin due to their disobedience. While the serpent isn't chastised explicitly in the text for lying, the curse it bears suggests a divine reaction for its part in the trickery. Though they are related, deception and lying are not the same thing, and the serpent's actions in Genesis 3 can be viewed as more deceptive than outright lying. The serpent deceived Eve by casting doubt on God's directive and offering substitute penalties for eating the fruit—albeit one that combined elements of truth and fiction. Because it misrepresented the consequences and disregarded God's command, the serpent's overall message was deceptive, even though it did not explicitly lie in every statement. All that to say, Satan's actions would then have to be deemed as merely deceiving and not lying, as lying is a sin.

​

 

[TheInquirer]

Depending on how the events in the Garden of Eden are interpreted and understood, the serpent may or may not not have been innocent when tricking Eve. Satan's presence in the Garden casts doubt on the idea that God's description of the Garden is a flawless, sinless paradise, even though it does hint at the existence of evil and sin. Even though the serpent was a major factor in the fall, Adam and Eve are ultimately accountable for the original sin due to their disobedience. While the serpent isn't chastised explicitly in the text for lying, the curse it bears suggests a divine reaction for its part in the trickery. Though they are related, deception and lying are not the same thing, and the serpent's actions in Genesis 3 can be viewed as more deceptive than outright lying. The serpent deceived Eve by casting doubt on God's directive and offering substitute penalties for eating the fruit—albeit one that combined elements of truth and fiction. Because it misrepresented the consequences and disregarded God's command, the serpent's overall message was deceptive, even though it did not explicitly lie in every statement. All that to say, Satan's actions would then have to be deemed as merely deceiving and not lying, as lying is a sin.

1) The Garden of Eden is not called "flawless" it is called "good." All creation is corruptible to some extent because it is not God, the only incorruptible one.

2) You are making the mistake of not interpreting the Garden of Eden using the rest of the Bible. As has already been pointed out, Satan is called the ancient serpent, the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning, all pointing to his personal presence and guilt and lying in the Garden.

3) I am not sure why you are bending over backwards to defend Satan here. What is your motive?

 

[TylerRay]

Depending on how the events in the Garden of Eden are interpreted and understood, the serpent may or may not not have been innocent when tricking Eve. Satan's presence in the Garden casts doubt on the idea that God's description of the Garden is a flawless, sinless paradise, even though it does hint at the existence of evil and sin. Even though the serpent was a major factor in the fall, Adam and Eve are ultimately accountable for the original sin due to their disobedience. While the serpent isn't chastised explicitly in the text for lying, the curse it bears suggests a divine reaction for its part in the trickery. Though they are related, deception and lying are not the same thing, and the serpent's actions in Genesis 3 can be viewed as more deceptive than outright lying. The serpent deceived Eve by casting doubt on God's directive and offering substitute penalties for eating the fruit—albeit one that combined elements of truth and fiction. Because it misrepresented the consequences and disregarded God's command, the serpent's overall message was deceptive, even though it did not explicitly lie in every statement. All that to say, Satan's actions would then have to be deemed as merely deceiving and not lying, as lying is a sin.

​

How many of the following do you think Satan committed?

Q. 145. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence; suborning false witnesses; wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause; out-facing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence; calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery; concealing the truth; undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, tale-bearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vain-glorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumours, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defence; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any, endeavouring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt; fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report; and practicing or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.

 

[TheMantis]

1) The Garden of Eden is not called "flawless" it is called "good." All creation is corruptible to some extent because it is not God, the only incorruptible one.

2) You are making the mistake of not interpreting the Garden of Eden using the rest of the Bible. As has already been pointed out, Satan is called the ancient serpent, the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning, all pointing to his presence and guilt and lying in the Garden.

3) I am not sure why you are bending over backwards to defend Satan here. What is your motive?

1. In the Book of Genesis, when God called His creation "good" and, finally, "very good," it meant wholeness, harmony, and order. Whether this declaration also means "flawless" in the sense of total perfection devoid of possibility for error or change is up for interpretation and theological discussion. I lean more towards the insinuation of being flawless, as it is commonly taught that it was paradise, where the lion lay with the lamb.

2. Forgive me; I am not interpreting the creation story using the rest of the Bible; I am observing that narrative alone and including details from other parts to be as fair and truthful to the account as possible. You are still failing to differentiate between deception and a lie, and there is no verse where he is condemned for lying.

3. I am not defending Satan; my sole pursuit is the truth. I fully acknowledge that he is the father of lies and a roaring lion seeking to devour. However, I believe this incident reveals a more nuanced narrative. Traditionally, it is taught that Satan's actions led directly to Eve's disobedience, resulting in humanity's fall. In reality, Satan achieved his objective without explicitly lying. He omitted key details and employed deception, appealing to the human desire to be like God. By suggesting they could attain divine knowledge of good and evil, Satan exploited their reverence for God and their aspiration to emulate Him. I am howing that there is a "good" that can take you away from the Father. Finally, again I don't believe he lied in this account because of where he was currently. Sin was in him, yes, but it was not yet an external and tarnishing creation just yet.

 

[TheMantis]

How many of the following do you think Satan committed?

Q. 145. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence; suborning false witnesses; wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause; out-facing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence; calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery; concealing the truth; undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, tale-bearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vain-glorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumours, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defence; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any, endeavouring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt; fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report; and practicing or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.

Thank you for providing the catechism. I affirm this confession and appreciate the Westminster Larger Catechism's detailed discussion of the sins prohibited by the ninth commandment. However, I believe that Scripture is the ultimate authority on all issues of faith and behavior, and I do not hold the catechism in higher regard than Scripture.

To quote my original post, "In the Garden, the serpent never told a lie, right?" I stand by my statement, which I discussed previously with Tyler (I believe it was). My central argument is that deception and lies, though similar and both ethically problematic, are fundamentally different in their methods and implications. If the serpent was already sinful while present in the Garden, then the traditional teaching about the Garden as a perfect and sinless paradise needs reevaluation. When God declared His creation "good," it implies that Satan, if already evil, would be included in this goodness, which contradicts the nature of Satan as understood in Scripture.

Therefore, if the serpent's actions in Genesis 3 were indeed sinful, then one could attribute original sin to "the devil made me do it" which undermines the principle of personal choice and accountability. Alternatively, if the serpent's omission of truth was not a sinful act per se, then the original sin remains with Eve's decision to disobey God's command, highlighting the human responsibility for the fall. This perspective underscores the importance of understanding the nuances between deception and lying within the biblical narrative.

 

[TylerRay]

Thank you for providing the catechism. I affirm this confession and appreciate the Westminster Larger Catechism's detailed discussion of the sins prohibited by the ninth commandment. However, I believe that Scripture is the ultimate authority on all issues of faith and behavior, and I do not hold the catechism in higher regard than Scripture.

To quote my original post, "In the Garden, the serpent never told a lie, right?" I stand by my statement, which I discussed previously with Tyler (I believe it was). My central argument is that deception and lies, though similar and both ethically problematic, are fundamentally different in their methods and implications. If the serpent was already sinful while present in the Garden, then the traditional teaching about the Garden as a perfect and sinless paradise needs reevaluation. When God declared His creation "good," it implies that Satan, if already evil, would be included in this goodness, which contradicts the nature of Satan as understood in Scripture.

Therefore, if the serpent's actions in Genesis 3 were indeed sinful, then one could attribute original sin to "the devil made me do it" which undermines the principle of personal choice and accountability. Alternatively, if the serpent's omission of truth was not a sinful act per se, then the original sin remains with Eve's decision to disobey God's command, highlighting the human responsibility for the fall. This perspective underscores the importance of understanding the nuances between deception and lying within the biblical narrative.

...so how many of the sins forbidden in the 9th commandment, as per WLC 145, did Satan commit in the garden?

 

[TheMantis]

...so how many of the sins forbidden in the 9th commandment, as per WLC 145, did Satan commit in the garden?

Technically, none because this still needs to be written. If you want to apply that standard now, then a lot. WLC gives broad examples of sin, but doesn't determine what constitutes a sin.

For example, WLC 119 stresses strict Sabbath observance, forbidding all forms of work, recreation, and commerce. yet many Christians believe that the Sabbath commandment allows for more flexibility, such as performing essential work or engaging in family activities, as long as the day is set aside for rest and worship.

So let me ask you, are you guilty of breaking 119 under recreation? Have you done or do you do any work not limited to moving laundry over or mowing your yard just as an example, if yes how many sins under these are you guilty of?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

You are still failing to differentiate between deception and a lie,

Are you sure? Satan straight up lied about what God said. To me this can't be more plain:

‭Genesis 2:17
God: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

‭Genesis 3:4
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

 

[TylerRay]

Technically, none because this still needs to be written. If you want to apply that standard now, then a lot. WLC gives broad examples of sin, but doesn't determine what constitutes a sin.

For example, WLC 119 stresses strict Sabbath observance, forbidding all forms of work, recreation, and commerce. yet many Christians believe that the Sabbath commandment allows for more flexibility, such as performing essential work or engaging in family activities, as long as the day is set aside for rest and worship.

So let me ask you, are you guilty of breaking 119 under recreation? Have you done or do you do any work not limited to moving laundry over or mowing your yard just as an example, if yes how many sins under these are you guilty of?

That's way outside the scope of the thread. Suffice it to say that I believe the Westmisnter Confession and Catechisms accurately represent the teaching of the Scriptures, including on Sabbath observance. I'd encourage you to review the board rules regarding confessional subsription and sabbatarianism.

I'm not going to continue derailing this thread with a vain argument. If you want to stubbornly believe that Satan, the father of lies, who is a murderer from the beginning, was being truthful when he deceived our first parents, I don't know what to say.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Thread closed for review due to member reports.

 

[py3ak]

[Moderator]
Brian, you stipulated to the Sabbath FAQ on joining (2 days ago) and checked the boxes understanding one is not to advocate against confessional views. But then you bring in some remarks against the WLC's position on the 4th Commandment in a context where it is not even relevant. It raises the question in my mind as to whether you understood what you were agreeing to or not when you signed up.
[/Moderator]

The identification of creation as very good in Genesis 1:31 does not mean that the devil was sinless at the time of the first temptation.