Carl Trueman: "99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should..."

[ReadBavinck]

Derek Thomas at reformation21.org asked ref21 bloggers if they agreed with this:

"Truth to tell, exposing sin is easier than applying grace; for, alas, we are more intimate with the former than we sometimes are with the latter. Therein lies our weakness." (from Sinclair Ferguson's leading article this month).

Carl Trueman responded with this today. A friend of mine recently said the same thing. What do you think?

For what it's worth

1/27/2006

Posted by CRT
I wonder if part of the problem Derek highlights comes down to maturity. I'm a ruling elder; and when I was elected as such, at age 33, I was quite young for the task. Yet churches routinely call men younger than that to be teaching elders and put them in overall pastoral control of congregations. They get the degree, they get the inner call, they get put in overall charge, with little or no life experience, no track record of being accountable or sitting under the authority of the word preached. How can we expect such to have the ability to connect with 99% of the human race with any sensitivity or tact? It's not impossible, but it cannot be assumed.

My thoughts: just because somebody has a degree, an inner call, a string of publications -- these things do not qualify them for leadership. Some of them are, perhaps, necessary presrequisites but they are not in themselves sufficient to establish a call. Personal qualities which can only in general be established over time are just as crucial. Maybe the problems Derek highlights with specific reference to the preaching of sin and grace are in part a function of a wider problem of putting people who aren't called to the ministry by churches into the job simply on the basis of a mystical, inner conviction that this is what they want to do. My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed. OK, OK, cite the cases of Spurgeon, M'Cheyne etc at me; but for every one who is a Spurgeon, I would suggest there are a thousand who are not.

 

[crhoades]

My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.

Perhaps they should go into the workforce when they graduate college and spend 10 years working, all the while studying their Bible, reading tons, listening to seminary courses on tape/mp3/cd while being mentored by men in the presbytery and session and then go to seminary.

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by crhoades

My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.

Perhaps they should go into the workforce when they graduate college and spend 10 years working, all the while studying their Bible, reading tons, listening to seminary courses on tape/mp3/cd while being mentored by men in the presbytery and session and then go to seminary.

I want to be careful here because this could sound bad, BUT frankly I think seminaries should require men to be a certain age before the come to seminary. Many of my classmates have never been anything in their lives except students. Yet when they graduate they are supposed to be properly to minister. I disagree. I think there is certain wisdom that comes from experience and age. I look back on myself at 23 and now at 38 and see an ENORMOUS difference that has pastoral implications.

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by crhoades

My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.

Perhaps they should go into the workforce when they graduate college and spend 10 years working, all the while studying their Bible, reading tons, listening to seminary courses on tape/mp3/cd while being mentored by men in the presbytery and session and then go to seminary.

Carl is a dear friend (we did a book together!) and I understand his point. Having taught a fair number of second career students, I enjoy teaching younger seminary students.

The younger students and graduates do lack experience, but they do have energy and a willingness to serve and suffer.

My experience with second career students might be a little different from Carl's. I've enjoyed their maturity, but it is much more difficult for them to learn than it is for the younger students to learn. Some of them have been impatient about learning "minutia" such as Greek and Hebrew.

Sem students and graduates do need maturity. That's why we send our students into internships for 700 hours (and more). Our churches would do well (as the OPC and RCUS) to require internships/apprenticeships of their graduates. I spent two years with a minister close to retirement and I thank God for that invaluable opportunity.

We also need our churches to select and catechize prospective sem students carefully. There is no reason why pastor's cannot invest themselves in a young man before seminary. Most of the time, however, sem students come to us without having such preparation. Sometimes local churches don't care what happens outside their congregation. Others refuse to "turn loose" (as Grandma said) of young men so they can be properly trained. Most of the time, local churches haven't taken the time to encourage and prepare young men for ministry.

The church has a long history of sending young men to college and then on to theological education. One difference between the 17th century and now is the culture within which those young men have been raised. In certain aspects, emotional and psychological maturity is delayed in our culture and that hinders preparation. In other aspects (e.g., sexual development) it arrives too early.

Carl is ALWAYS interesting and stimulating.

rsc

 

[crhoades]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll

Originally posted by crhoades

My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.

Perhaps they should go into the workforce when they graduate college and spend 10 years working, all the while studying their Bible, reading tons, listening to seminary courses on tape/mp3/cd while being mentored by men in the presbytery and session and then go to seminary.

I want to be careful here because this could sound bad, BUT frankly I think seminaries should require men to be a certain age before the come to seminary. Many of my classmates have never been anything in their lives except students. Yet when they graduate they are supposed to be properly to minister. I disagree. I think there is certain wisdom that comes from experience and age. I look back on myself at 23 and now at 38 and see an ENORMOUS difference that has pastoral implications.

For whatever a personal testimony is worth from me, I echo your experience. when I graduated college I immediately visited a couple of seminaries. Providentially I joined the work force and have been at it for 6+ years in a corporate environment. The pressures and politics that I've faced and sometimes overcome in a large World 100 company (Bridgestone) has no doubt matured me and will help me when/if I go into the ministry. I have used my time since college (I'm 30) with reading and listening to lectures with all available opportunities. I'm also trying to redeem the time by learning Hebrew so that I'll be able to test out. I'm also involved in a pastoral internship/mentored for ministry program under my pastor that is invaluable. All of this to say, everyday that I have not went to seminary I am thankful. Now granted, I'm eager to go but I will be better suited to be there when I get the opportunity.

 

[RamistThomist]

Chris,
How old were you when you graduated college?24, 25?

 

[Me Died Blue]

I agree with some of his concerns, but also with some things Dr. Clark noted as well. For me, I know that if I do end up obtaining the confirmed inner and outer call to pastoral ministry, I would not (during or right after seminary) seek out a position of senior pastor to start off with, but would seek and internship and even then likely an Assistant or Associate Pastor position, as I believe that would be the best way to refine my experience with serving and with receiving counsel before putting a congregation under my primary care for teaching.

 

[crhoades]

Originally posted by Draught Horse
Chris,
How old were you when you graduated college?24, 25?

23

I was on the 6+ year plan due to switching from pre-pharmacy to Chemistry/Biology and then adding secondary education as well as experimenting too much extracurricuarly...I didn't become a Christian until halfway through college...

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

 

[cupotea]

The younger students and graduates do lack experience, but they do have energy and a willingness to serve and suffer.

My experience with second career students might be a little different from Carl's. I've enjoyed their maturity, but it is much more difficult for them to learn than it is for the younger students to learn. Some of them have been impatient about learning "minutia" such as Greek and Hebrew.

As a second-career pastor I find myself in agreement with you on both counts. The younger seminarians I encountered were - universally - immature emotionally, relationally, and spiritually.

But as an older student and pastor I was TOTALLY unprepared to be a pastor. I feel sorry for those "first call" congregations that are inevitably saddled with the likes of us. It was only through many years of hard knocks (due to my own ignorance) that I first began to understand what it means to be a pastor. And this was *after* a full year of internship.

Furthermore, I didn't even begin to develop theologically until well after I was out of the seminary and into the pastorate. Maybe this was due to the fact that I'd spent 8 years in two liberal, historical-critical dominated seminaries who gave me a political indoctrination instead of a theological education.

I'm not sure what the solution is. But I know that seminaries need our prayers.

 

[Romans922]

I understand all that is being said, and I don't necessarily disagree. But for a second let me be the immature 23 yr old that I am and put forth something from the otherside of the fence.

Kevin said that he has matured a great deal from 23 to his current age 38. But I ask, won't you look back when you are 55 and think, "Man I really matured since I graduated from seminary."

Or might I ask, when is someone 'mature' enough to ever be qualified to be a leader over a congregation/flock? I don't think any of us would be qualified for such a task. But it is all upon Christ where we have our wisdom, strength, power.

However, I can say...if I were to begin shepherding a flock as a pastor right now, I would be absolutely stupid to do it on my own, and I think for even older ministers it is foolish. But especially if I was the age I am now, I would most certainly seek the wisdom of my fellow elders. I would not be so stupid as to not seek them and their wisdom. Even if I was in my 40's I would be seeking men who are older and far wiser than me for guidance. But let us also again not forget that we must always seek the counsel of Christ, who gives us the grace to do anything.

I don't know what to think of what has been said. I understand it, but I don't know what I am to do about it.



Well, despite this, I am off to go to First Pres for the Men's rally, that Al Mohler was supposed to speak at. However, his father in law is sick/dying maybe and isnt going to be there. Keep him in your prayers.

 

[crhoades]

This is not directed to anyone in particular more of a self-reflection again...

The above started out with a person being elected a ruling elder when 33...

I'm 30 (and I understand that age is relative to maturity) and I would not qualify as an elder right now. In the sense that I need maturation and a better hold on my household financially and I'm sure my wife would say that I need to be a better spiritaul head (I'd agree!). So would it not be logical that if I would count myself out of a ruling elder position that I shouldn't hop into becoming a TE yet? Should I not wait until my session deems me ready to send me? It's been idententified that I have a desire to go to seminary and I'm currently under evaluation as to giftedness etc. and a part of that is me being shepherded in more than the confession.

I guess what I'm stumbling around is should men go to seminary for training to become TE's when they wouldn't be considered to be RE's in their home church?

Please take my inquries as what they are, probing questions that I'm wrestling through existentially. Please don't think that I'm projecting out to anyone on this board - I have friends on this board and also outside of the board who are younger than I and are in seminary. And again, I know it is hard to make a hard and fast rule because age itself is arbitrary - I'm not looking for a "you can't go to seminary until your 28" type reply but more of a theoretical one.

 

[rmwilliamsjr]

Turn the question around a little bit.
How do we mature? by going through trials and experiences and learning from them.

How do you learn to be a Pastor?
by experiencing the different pieces that make up a Pastor's job description. It appears to me that lots of those pieces can be learned in part in seminary, but the depth of knowledge and experience is only going to be learned OJT.

hence the postings pointing out the essentialness of working with an experienced Pastor.

Now i sacrificed a lot to go to seminary at 28, only to find after 2 years of pain that the church did not see an outer call. I really appreciate what i learned there but i regret the pain i put my wife and family through. There really ought to be a better way.
(i'm 52 now, kids are all gone and i'm back to reading theology, but i'll never go back to seminary. however i deeply enjoy and profit from teaching Sunday School [and appreciate the opportunity])

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
Turn the question around a little bit.
How do we mature? by going through trials and experiences and learning from them.

How do you learn to be a Pastor?
by experiencing the different pieces that make up a Pastor's job description. It appears to me that lots of those pieces can be learned in part in seminary, but the depth of knowledge and experience is only going to be learned OJT.

I agree, much of what I've learned could only be learned by sitting in consistory/session and presbytery/classis meetings, making house visits, and standing in the pulpit. There's nothing like grey/gray hair.

I have noticed, however, that men who have served on a session/consistory before going to sem seem to be a little better grounded. That helps a lot. It lets them know the realities of church life before they come. They realize how important this stuff is, that it isn't purely theoretical, that it's life and death in some cases.

Maybe I miss out on the conversations in the student lounge -- I'm sure I do; but I hear about some of them and there is immaturity -- but I am impressed with the maturity of even our younger students. These are fellows who could be doing something else, men of ability and energy who have given up lucrative careers (in some cases at least) for Christ and his church. I'm impressed with their devotion and passion (in the colloquial sense) and with their self-control, most of the time. I always tell new students, when I get the chance, to listen to other students and determine who is worth listening to and who isn't. It doesn't take too long to figure out. It's usually the one's who talk all the time who aren't so worthy of rapt attention.

I see these fellows mature over three or four (or even 5) years. We put them through the fire as best we can. They serve in congregations in various ways. Some even serve on sessions/consistories.

It is interesting and instructive to compare their pictures from when they entered to when the graduate. The lines on their faces mean something and their bearing and demeanor changes.

For what it's worth, we don't get a lot of reports back saying, "Hey, this fellow isn't ready...."

I do wish that sessions/consistories would call us before they call a man (if he's an alum). They rarely do, however.

rsc

[Edited on 1-28-2006 by R. Scott Clark]

 

[Puritanhead]

"99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should..."

...marry a female law school graduate so they won't be so poor the rest of their life...

 

[fredtgreco]

Two comments:

1. I think the level of "readiness" is seen in the length of pastorates. The average in Reformed circles is (I believe) 3 or 4 years. It is relatively the same across the board. This is how the Church "deals" with the problem - it doesn't say anything to the seminaries, Presbyteries avoid it (citing "different philosophies of ministry" or the magical "I believe God is calling me to a nearly identical church one state over"), and pastors only whisper it to friends. That is reality.

2. I think this also reflects the level of commitment and maturity of ruling elders. If we truly believe in a plurality of elders, a (relatively) young pastor should not be a major problem. The REs should support and help train him, even as the young TE can help train them. Example: the young TE brings seminary experience, language experience, a wealth (usually) of reading. The REs bring age, world experience, relationship experience, etc.

The problem is that too often REs view the TE as the "expert" because "he went to seminary." Yeah....ok... and that means? Young TEs can come out and think that because they can parse verbs and recite the latest in redemptive historical theory, that REs need to be put in their place.

Personally, the most important preparation for my ministry is my service as an RE. Second most is my experience as basically Interim Pastor of a church.

 

[ReadBavinck]

What does this maturity look like, sound like? How would a seminary grad, young or old, know that he is mature enough?

 

[satz]

I don't think the issue is so much that secular work prepares men for the ministry. Rather, men should be given the chance to mature spiritually and emotionally before setting out on a path or enter the ministry. While not impossible, i think it is very rare that a young man below 25 just out of university or something similar can know for certain he is called. As someone else mentioned, it is simply a fact that in our society today, men ( and women) mature slower than they did in previous generations.

Would it not be wiser for young men with a desire for the ministry to (generally) enter the workforce and start earning a living like everyone else? At the same time, their pastor should be monitoring their service in church and maybe assigning them special duties and tasks that will allow him to test their qualification to the ministry.

Now there may be special exceptions and the like, but i feel this is a good general rule? Wasn't Jesus around 30 when he began his own ministry?

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by CJ_Chelpka
What does this maturity look like, sound like? How would a seminary grad, young or old, know that he is mature enough?

That's where consistories/sessions and presbyteries/classes come into play. They need to help the candidate make an honest self-assessment. They need to evaluate him honestly. They need to season him.

It's not a purely subjective judgment made by the candidate himself. It's a judgment made with others in the church.

In some respects, one is never old enough, never experienced enough. I've seen very senior men do and say very immature and destructive things.

This life is a constant dying to self and living to Christ.

rsc

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by CJ_Chelpka
What does this maturity look like, sound like? How would a seminary grad, young or old, know that he is mature enough?

Read the requirements of the pastoral epistles to see what maturity is required. Then read the book of Numbers and the epistle to Corinthians to see why that maturity is required and what kind of people we are called to minister to.

 

[Romans922]

If they are called by God to said office, maybe they should be mentored like Timothy was by Paul.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Romans922
If they are called by God to said office, maybe they should be mentored like Timothy was by Paul.

I agree. I'd love to have a mentor. There are so few these days. Even the professors of seminaries usually don't have time to mentor students.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by puritansailor

Originally posted by Romans922
If they are called by God to said office, maybe they should be mentored like Timothy was by Paul.

I agree. I'd love to have a mentor. There are so few these days. Even the professors of seminaries usually don't have time to mentor students.

Agreed. My senior year of college my pastor, in an informal way, took me under his wing and showed me, granted in very small measures, how to use the Confession and the Reformed faith pastorally. I learned SO much.

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by fredtgreco
Two comments:

1. I think the level of "readiness" is seen in the length of pastorates. The average in Reformed circles is (I believe) 3 or 4 years. It is relatively the same across the board. This is how the Church "deals" with the problem - it doesn't say anything to the seminaries, Presbyteries avoid it (citing "different philosophies of ministry" or the magical "I believe God is calling me to a nearly identical church one state over"), and pastors only whisper it to friends. That is reality.

2. I think this also reflects the level of commitment and maturity of ruling elders. If we truly believe in a plurality of elders, a (relatively) young pastor should not be a major problem. The REs should support and help train him, even as the young TE can help train them. Example: the young TE brings seminary experience, language experience, a wealth (usually) of reading. The REs bring age, world experience, relationship experience, etc.

The problem is that too often REs view the TE as the "expert" because "he went to seminary." Yeah....ok... and that means? Young TEs can come out and think that because they can parse verbs and recite the latest in redemptive historical theory, that REs need to be put in their place.

Personally, the most important preparation for my ministry is my service as an RE. Second most is my experience as basically Interim Pastor of a church.

Very, very true. I really feel for some young men who get into a church plant and are usually left to their own devices. On the whole they don't have any experienced RE's and they are sitting out there on an island.

To me the key for first time pastors, regardless of age, is that they need a big dose of humility.

Pastors are called primarily by a church to preach the Gospel. That is their primary gift. No one really considers that they may have no organizational/administrative or financial skills. This is where humility comes in. In a small church, the pastor will be expected to do a lot, because he is the guy who is always there. I have seen pastors who actually believe that a line item in a budget thinks that "hey we have the money because its in the budget!" and start spending money the church doesn't have. Or have no idea how to organize themselves much less anything in the church. They need help, but won't admit it.

Also, the pastor has to realize that he is not the "leader" of the church. The leadership belongs to all the officers of the church, including Deacons. This is how Christ has set things up. If you go against it, the church will fail sooner or later. I have been around some very arrogant TE's who think they can do it all, and with that type of attitude, they end up doing it all and fall flat on their faces because the Session let them do it (it goes like this, "If he wants to make all the decisions, he can do all the work!").

This is why humility is very important. A pastor must learn to "submit to the brethern". And this doesn't mean other TE's. It means the Session. If a pastor shows this type of humility, he shouldn't have too many problems, regardless of age or experience.

for an old RE.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Here are Some young Elders who knew their Bible well:

The Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus Christ: 30 years old.
John the Apostle: ? (His age may range from 17-31??)
Aurelius Augustine: 37
John Calvin: 22 (He had his first chaplainry at age 12)
Christopher Love: 27
Jonathan Edwards: 15
Richard Baxter: 23

Careful: maturity cannot be simply measured in years.

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
Here are Some young Elders who knew their Bible well:

The Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus Christ: 30 years old.
John the Apostle: ? (His age may range from 17-31??)
Aurelius Augustine: 37
John Calvin: 22 (He had his first chaplainry at age 12)
Christopher Love: 27
Jonathan Edwards: 15
Richard Baxter: 23

Careful: maturity cannot be simply measured in years.

Jesus, of course, had the advantage of being the Eternal Son of God.

 

[Bladestunner316]

Rev. Kevin,
Thats a minor detail

blade

 

[CDM]

Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
Here are Some young Elders who knew their Bible well:

The Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus Christ: 30 years old.
John the Apostle: ? (His age may range from 17-31??)
Aurelius Augustine: 37
John Calvin: 22 (He had his first chaplainry at age 12)
Christopher Love: 27
Jonathan Edwards: 15
Richard Baxter: 23

Careful: maturity cannot be simply measured in years.

Agreed. I am made to think of Paul writing to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:11-16:

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

[satz]

I still think caution is called for...

All those examples are well and good but as the Carl Trueman quote in the original post said, for every spurgeon (or calvin, or edwards etc) there are probably a 1000 who are not as qualified.

Its a simple fact that as far as men are concerned 'they don't make them like they used too' and we should take that into account before ordaining men to the ministry.

1 Tim 4:11-16 was written by Paul to Timothy, a man who Paul had already given his 'stamp of approval' to. I don't think the words can we applied to simply any young man who desires the ministry, because just like not every man is a spurgeon, most certainly not every man is a Timothy. If you are called, and happen to be young then by all means do not let men despise your youth. But if you are simply a young man desirous of a role in ministry, i believe it is wise to be humbly consider if you are ready at the moment.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by satz
Its a simple fact that as far as men are concerned 'they don't make them like they used too' and we should take that into account before ordaining men to the ministry.

I think this is a very interesting point in our culture in general today. Men get married later than they used to, and have children later. The single biggest factors in this is a reluctance on institutions (high school, parents, employers, etc) to make them grow up and the change in higher education. The enormous debt load is one thing, but today in order to get a decent job, often graduate work is required. Two generations ago, a high school education was sufficient (and most high schools did a better job than most colleges today). One generation ago, college was enough. Now even in the engineering fields graduate work is becoming the norm. That means older graduates, older husbands, etc.

Men often don't start "real life" until their late 20s now.

 

[satz]

Fred,

I think you raise a good point about how men in our generation leave school later and how that might contribute to lower levels of maturity amongst young men.

This is getting a little OT, but i just wanted to say it really is sad that this necessarily has to be the case. I certainly believe young males can start to be men (as opposed to boys) even when they are in university or college. Sure, studying is not as tough as working, but then some men have easier jobs then others. They might have to push themselves more because life won't push them (so much) during student life, but i think it is possible for young men to start maturing both spiritually and professionally even whilst completing their education.

Looking back, i certainly regret wasting away my late teens and early twenties on childish frivolities.