Carrying Concealed When It's Prohibited

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smhbbag

Puritan Board Senior
As you all know, there are many places where concealed carry is prohibited, either by the law (schools, churches, bars, etc.) or by the private property owners (malls, retail stores, etc.).

I have heard a number of arguments, mostly from secular libertarians, with whom I sympathize on many issues, who believe that disobedience to these laws or the property-owners is valid at some times.

Does anyone here agree? Any of you carry where it's "prohibited"? What is your justification?

If you think it's foolish and unjustified, say so as well. Just looking for input.
 

E Nomine

Puritan Board Freshman
The first rule of Concealed Carry Club is you do not talk about Concealed Carry Club.
 

py3ak

They're stalling and plotting against me
Staff member
I suppose the defense would be that the Constitution trumps lesser laws; but that wouldn't necessarily apply with regard to owners of private property.
 

gene_mingo

Puritan Board Junior
I believe that owners of private business need to provide a place to store your weapon if they have a prohibition on carrying them. If they do not provide this I believe they cannot prohibit you carrying legally. Other than that you should always obey carry laws.

-----Added 4/7/2009 at 09:53:48 EST-----

and laws on carrying vary from state to state.
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
Another question to ask is whether the stiff penalties for carrying a concealed weapon w/o a permit makes it worth the risk. As you're possibly sitting in jail for a few years, will you feel justified in having stood firmly on the Constitution?
 

Jimmy the Greek

Puritan Board Senior
Places like Malls and Retail stores must have it clearly posted. If I don't see a posting on the door I enter, then I have no qualms. However, if it is posted properly, I will usually take my business elsewhere. If that's not feasible, I lock it in the trunk of my car for that short time.
 

matt01

Puritan Board Senior
As you all know, there are many places where concealed carry is prohibited, either by the law (schools, churches, bars, etc.) or by the private property owners (malls, retail stores, etc.).

I have heard a number of arguments, mostly from secular libertarians, with whom I sympathize on many issues, who believe that disobedience to these laws or the property-owners is valid at some times.

Does anyone here agree? Any of you carry where it's "prohibited"? What is your justification?
The only time we should be "breaking" the laws, is when those laws force us to sin. Laws restricting the carrying of weapons in certain locations are not causing us to sin. Private property owners who desire for customers to not carry are not causing us to sin. I would abide by both restrictions.

I will usually take my business elsewhere. If that's not feasible, I lock it in the trunk of my car for that short time.
Good point. Vote with your feet. If enough people agree, the private groups will eventually change.
 

LawrenceU

Puritan Board Doctor
While I keep my practices to myself I did find a little line from a retired Spec Ops / attorney / fire arms instructor fellow interesting:

'Better judged by twelve than carried by six.'
 

Romans922

Puritan Board Professor
As you all know, there are many places where concealed carry is prohibited, either by the law (schools, churches, bars, etc.) or by the private property owners (malls, retail stores, etc.).

I have heard a number of arguments, mostly from secular libertarians, with whom I sympathize on many issues, who believe that disobedience to these laws or the property-owners is valid at some times.

Does anyone here agree? Any of you carry where it's "prohibited"? What is your justification?
The only time we should be "breaking" the laws, is when those laws force us to sin. Laws restricting the carrying of weapons in certain locations are not causing us to sin. Private property owners who desire for customers to not carry are not causing us to sin. I would abide by both restrictions.
Maybe we need to consider whether not carrying a gun is a sin...

Westminster Larger Catechism:

Question 135: What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Question 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and: Whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I think if it is against the law but allowed by the constitution, then you shouldn't carry it until your leaders acknowledge the constitution and allow you to do so. Romans 13.
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
How did you miss this. You just bolded the wrong spots to answer your question

Maybe we need to consider whether not carrying a gun is a sin...

Westminster Larger Catechism:

Question 135: What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Question 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and: Whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.
You are not to use unjust and unlawful means to protect life.

So if it is against the law of the state to carry then it would not be a means of grace one should use.

When they pass the law here as they did in UK And Aus, to ban guns will you submit to your govt you live under and turn in your gun or lie or shoot it out with them?
 

Jimmy the Greek

Puritan Board Senior
. . . When they pass the law here as they did in UK And Aus, to ban guns will you submit to your govt you live under and turn in your gun or lie or shoot it out with them?
I will not advertise my response in advance. :smug:

Is revolution against "a government gone too far" ever biblical?
 

SolaScriptura

Puritanboard Snowflake
The first rule of Concealed Carry Club is you do not talk about Concealed Carry Club.
I think this about says it all.



Gangsters and criminals still carry in those places. Just last year there was an innocent bystander shot in the local mall in Fayetteville. Remember: Like all gun control measures, all they do is disarm the law abiding folk... giving the criminals a monopoly on gun possession.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 08:05:31 EST-----

Is revolution against "a government gone too far" ever biblical?
Only if a few 100,000 are involved. Otherwise you're just a criminal.
 

gene_mingo

Puritan Board Junior
When they pass the law here as they did in UK And Aus, to ban guns will you submit to your govt you live under and turn in your gun or lie or shoot it out with them?
I will turn in my guns.
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
I believe that owners of private business need to provide a place to store your weapon if they have a prohibition on carrying them. If they do not provide this I believe they cannot prohibit you carrying legally.
You are incorrect. Private property rights precede all other rights. They are the foundation of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What right do you have to tell a person what they can do with their property? Does that mean I must allow smokers because smoking is legal? I must allow p0rnography, because that is legal?

I am all for concealed carry laws. But the above statement goes way too far.
 

Reformed Baptist

Puritan Board Sophomore
When they pass the law here as they did in UK And Aus, to ban guns will you submit to your govt you live under and turn in your gun or lie or shoot it out with them?
I will practice civil disobedience.

Those who plan to turn in their guns..give me a call first. I gots a place fer dem. lol
 

Romans922

Puritan Board Professor
So when the F.E.D.S. come looking for my guns on my property, I can tell them to get rid of their guns?

Can we start a PB Militia? The PB will rise again!
 

Skyler

Puritan Board Graduate
. . . When they pass the law here as they did in UK And Aus, to ban guns will you submit to your govt you live under and turn in your gun or lie or shoot it out with them?
I will not advertise my response in advance. :smug:

Is revolution against "a government gone too far" ever biblical?
Not according to Paul in Romans 13. "There is no power but that which has been ordained by God." He who resists that power is therefore resisting an ordinance of God.

Seems pretty clear to me what the Christian's response should be.
 

Berean

Puritanboard Commissioner
. . . When they pass the law here as they did in UK And Aus, to ban guns will you submit to your govt you live under and turn in your gun or lie or shoot it out with them?
I will not advertise my response in advance. :smug:

Is revolution against "a government gone too far" ever biblical?
Not according to Paul in Romans 13. "There is no power but that which has been ordained by God." He who resists that power is therefore resisting an ordinance of God.

Seems pretty clear to me what the Christian's response should be.
So is the USA an illegitimate nation, having been born from a revolution against the legitimate British government?
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
Is revolution against "a government gone too far" ever biblical?

Only if a few 100,000 are involved. Otherwise you're just a criminal.

Not according to Paul in Romans 13. "There is no power but that which has been ordained by God." He who resists that power is therefore resisting an ordinance of God.

So is the USA an illegitimate nation, having been born from a revolution against the legitimate British government?
Good questions?

How do we determine a few 100,000 make it OK? Is this is % of total population or ???

Does God say we can resist a corrupt govt? Can't imagine a more corrupt govt than Rome and they were told to submit not do a Revolt.

Help us out here while you feel otherwise?
 

VictorBravo

Administrator
Staff member
Moved to Law of God forum.

Please keep it from becoming political, or off it goes into Politics. That means discussions on how a believer should interact with government and how governments should act are fine, but if we start discussing particular current policies, it gets moved.
 

Skyler

Puritan Board Graduate
I will not advertise my response in advance. :smug:

Is revolution against "a government gone too far" ever biblical?
Not according to Paul in Romans 13. "There is no power but that which has been ordained by God." He who resists that power is therefore resisting an ordinance of God.

Seems pretty clear to me what the Christian's response should be.
So is the USA an illegitimate nation, having been born from a revolution against the legitimate British government?
Were they(the rebels) resisting the God-ordained authority that was placed over them?

If so, then would not the answer be yes, however distasteful that may seem to our modern sense of patriotism?
 

smhbbag

Puritan Board Senior
Back on topic guys, if you please.

For a specific argument to consider - this comes from a guy in my church who carries everywhere, regardless of the law or his employer's wishes.

In his mind, you do of course lose a lot of ability to claim your rights when you are on someone else's property. But, one right you do not lose is your right to life, especially if (as at a retailer or employer) you are not trespassing but in fact were invited. Everyone should agree on this point.

In his mind, the right to life necessarily includes a right to self-defense. He would say that even on someone else's property, you have no obligation to obey his demand that you not defend yourself from bodily harm. As such, if they cannot take away your right to self-defense, then they cannot rightly demand you give up your means to that defense.

Of course, even if you do buy that whole line of thought, it is still not mandatory to carry everywhere, but it would then become a pragmatic question of potential cost/benefit of carrying that would look something like this:

Probability of getting caught times time punishment if you do vs. probability of using it to save a life * benefit if it does.

Comments or critiques?
 

VictorBravo

Administrator
Staff member
Back on topic guys, if you please.

For a specific argument to consider - this comes from a guy in my church who carries everywhere, regardless of the law or his employer's wishes.

In his mind, you do of course lose a lot of ability to claim your rights when you are on someone else's property. But, one right you do not lose is your right to life. Everyone should agree on this point.

In his mind, the right to life necessarily includes a right to self-defense. He would say that even on someone else's property, you have no obligation to obey his demand that you not defend yourself from bodily harm. As such, if they cannot take away your right to self-defense, then they cannot rightly demand you give up your means to that defense.

Of course, even if you do buy that whole line of thought, it is still not mandatory to carry everywhere, but it would then become a pragmatic question of potential cost/benefit of carrying that would look something like this:

Probability of getting caught times time punishment if you do vs. probability of using it to save a life * benefit if it does.

Comments or critiques?

Sure, he has a right to self-defense, and the owner of private property has the right to determine who can be on his property. The owner's right to place restrictions on the other's right to carry does not infringe on the carrier's rights in any fashion, because the carrier is not obligated to be on the property.

That is straightforward libertarian-common law property rights theory.
 

smhbbag

Puritan Board Senior
Sure, he has a right to self-defense, and the owner of private property has the right to determine who can be on his property. The owner's right to place restrictions on the other's right to carry does not infringe on the carrier's rights in any fashion, because the carrier is not obligated to be on the property.

That is straightforward libertarian-common law property rights theory.
That was my response to him (though, it was tough to be productive, as we were at a bar during the NCAA championship game).

I further added that it may be sin to willfully reject the authority of the owner, and enter his property with deceit in your heart. If you know the rules ahead of time, there is no excuse.

But, I respect this guy's intelligence and his perspective on a lot of things, so I wanted to see if I was in fact missing something.
 

coramdeo

Puritan Board Sophomore
My friends and I have often gone out of the way to complain to the management of establishments that have signs prohibiting concealed carry and explain the we will not patronize them. We have been successful on a number of occasions in having such signs removed. Don't just let them have their way without a fight.
:2cents:
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
Let them know you are Christians and how much safer he and the whole place will be with you there with your guns and God. :soapbox:
 
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