Cerebral vs. Experiential Knowledge of the Holy Spirit

[steadfast7]

In his new book, Forgotten God, by popular southern Cali Pastor Francis Chan, he writes,

Many of us don't need more knowledge about the Spirit from a cerebral vantage point -- what we need is experiential knowledge of His presence.

He goes on to argue that the Holy Spirit's activity in the life of the believer should be one of power, a marked difference with the world. What do you guys think of this quote?

What does it mean for Reformed Christians to have an experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit without getting into charismania? is it even necessary?

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this...


cheers.

 

[ewenlin]

I have neither read this book nor have any knowledge of the author.

However, any experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit should have its foundation and means as the Word of God. Whenever experience is mentioned without alluding to the Word of God, errors are sure to abound.

The Scriptures are our only rule of faith and conduct. I think experience falls within that. Anything else outside of it, no thanks.

Many of us don't need more knowledge about the Spirit from a cerebral vantage point -- what we need is experiential knowledge of His presence.

I think there's a false dichotomy of the work of the Spirit between cognitive and experiential knowledge. I don't think the two (cerebral vantage point and experiential knowledge) are as separated as the author posits.

My

by the way dennis, I sent you an email awhile back, have you received it?

 

[toddpedlar]

I'm not sure what he means by an "experiential knowledge of His Presence"... a warm and fuzzy feeling? An "I'm captain invincible!" feeling when it comes to dealing with temptations?

The fact that I am able to trust God with my life, family and possessions, and relinquish all claim on any merit in my being "good enough, smart enough and likeable enough" for God to want to save me is PLENTY of experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit's presence in my life. The fact that I have embraced Christ and His gospel, His atoning work on the cross for me and His Lordship in my life is FAR more evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence than anything I might get from a warm fuzziness or some 'gifts of healing' that many might want me to have in order to demonstrate to the world and to manufacture sufficient evidence for me to believe in my own salvation.

I'm not sure what other experience Mr. Chan wants me to have, but I am confident that what the Bible describes in terms of experience of the Holy Spirit, by God's grace, I have been given.

 

[carlgobelman]

In his new book, Forgotten God, by popular southern Cali Pastor Francis Chan, he writes,

Many of us don't need more knowledge about the Spirit from a cerebral vantage point -- what we need is experiential knowledge of His presence.

He goes on to argue that the Holy Spirit's activity in the life of the believer should be one of power, a marked difference with the world. What do you guys think of this quote?

What does it mean for Reformed Christians to have an experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit without getting into charismania? is it even necessary?

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this...


cheers.

Not having read the book nor being familiar with the author (and therefore not really having a firm context on which to comment), it does seem (as others have stated) that the author is saying we should seek some extra-biblical 'experience' of the Holy Spirit. That is one of the constant dangers the church has faced in her history; namely, seeking something beyond the God ordained means of Word and Sacrament to 'confirm' our faith. The Apostle Paul calls preaching "foolishness" and says that Jews demand signs and Greeks demand wisdom, but we are to "preach Christ and him crucified."

This almost reminds me of something I read regarding Rick Warren a few weeks ago. He said:

The last thing many believers need is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice. What they need are serving experiences in which they can exercise their spiritual muscles.

That is simply shocking! Maybe we don't need to go to another Rick Warren Bible study, but to say this is borderline heretical.

 

[ewenlin]

This almost reminds me of something I read regarding Rick Warren a few weeks ago. He said:

The last thing many believers need is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice. What they need are serving experiences in which they can exercise their spiritual muscles.

That is simply shocking! Maybe we don't need to go to another Rick Warren Bible study, but to say this is borderline heretical.

Hahaha

 

[JBaldwin]

I don't know what the author meant by "experiential knowledge" either. I agree with Ewen that an experience we have with the Holy Spirit should have its foundation in the Word of God. I would add that a person must have more than a cerebral knowledge of God. The devils believe and tremble, but they don't have a personal relationship with God.

This experiential relationship that is lined up with the Word of God does not play out the way the typical charismatic says. It has more to do with what is going on in the motivations and actions of a person. For example, if I believe and love and trust God, when a difficult circumstance comes up in my life, I turn to God, trust in His goodness (even though it doesn't look like He's being good). I look to Him for guidance, and I am at peace. That's experiential. For the person who has a head-knowledge of God, when the same storm comes, he inwardly panics, doesn't turn to the Lord and tries to figure out how to get out of the situation. In short, his experience is one of fear and panic and doubt.

Of course, being human, we all have experienced the second scenerio, but eventually, every believer comes around to the first scenerio, because his faith is alive and his relationship with God is real. I think that is what James mean when he said that faith without works is dead.

 

[Peairtach]

We do sometimes/often need to meditate on who/what we already are in Christ. This can be blessed to us, experientially, as the Spirit once more takes of the things of Christ and reveals them to us.

There are other spiritual experiences which we (can) undergo after conversion

e.g.

(i) Some lack assurance and then get it by God's grace

(ii) The ongoing process of sanctification to higher degrees of maturity.

(iii) Backsliders either by drifting or more consciously need to repent and turn to the Lord.

(iv) The filling of the Spirit.

(v) Making use of the real gifts of the Spirit which we have.

(vi) Enjoying/being edified by a good sermon.

The Spirit is present to bless God's Word to us experimentally/experientially, although we don't believe in the counterfeit gifts of the Pentecostalists.

 

[steadfast7]

Chan isn't really talking about fuzzy feelings as much as lamenting the fact that many Christians live without an awareness of his presence, or the impact of his ministry in our lives. So-called Christians live without any evidence of his fruit, victory or power.

One line of reasoning he uses is John 16:7 "it is good for you that I am going away. Unless I go away the counselor will not come .." The key to the continuation of Jesus' ministry was not the canonizing of the Bible, but the ministry of the Holy Spirit. I think all Reformed Christians do believe this. Calvin and the Puritans were very big on the Spirit.

Ewen:

I think there's a false dichotomy of the work of the Spirit between cognitive and experiential knowledge. I don't think the two (cerebral vantage point and experiential knowledge) are as separated as the author posits.

There certainly is a distinction in their essence. The Holy Spirit is an actual person, after all, not a body of facts. Now if the Holy Spirit is a person, active and working in our lives, then his presence should be "felt" and his impact would be necessarily "extra biblical", wouldn't you say?

 

[dr_parsley]

In his new book, Forgotten God, by popular southern Cali Pastor Francis Chan, he writes,

Many of us don't need more knowledge about the Spirit from a cerebral vantage point -- what we need is experiential knowledge of His presence.

This almost reminds me of something I read regarding Rick Warren a few weeks ago. He said:

The last thing many believers need is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice. What they need are serving experiences in which they can exercise their spiritual muscles.

That is simply shocking! Maybe we don't need to go to another Rick Warren Bible study, but to say this is borderline heretical.

There may be contextual stuff going on with the quoted people that I don't know about, but as far as the quotes go I can readily identify with and affirm them. For me personally, if I have a choice between doing some study and doing some prayer, prayer should win every time. You've probably seen those funny maps where each country is proportioned according to some statistic, e.g. when proportioned by internet connectivity Africa looks like a little needle and South Korea like a continent. When I look at my life, study is a huge mega continent when it should be merely a good size continent while prayer is a little needle when it should be as big as study. Outreach, evangelism, exercising compassion, basically walking in His footsteps, can all easily suffer because it's so very easy and feels so very safe just to sit at my desk and read to build up my intellectual faith even further.

 

[Bern]

You're so right about that. Prayer should win every time, but it doesn't. Much like reading books, no matter how great they are, should never replace the bible... but sometimes they do.

 

[toddpedlar]

Chan isn't really talking about fuzzy feelings as much as lamenting the fact that many Christians live without an awareness of his presence, or the impact of his ministry in our lives. So-called Christians live without any evidence of his fruit, victory or power.

Maybe you can help, then. What is the evidence of his fruit, victory and power that you have in mind? That is, what makes a so-called Christian "so-called" in your mind, with respect to this missing fruit, victory and power that I hope you'll define for us?

 

[carlgobelman]

There certainly is a distinction in their essence. The Holy Spirit is an actual person, after all, not a body of facts. Now if the Holy Spirit is a person, active and working in our lives, then his presence should be "felt" and his impact would be necessarily "extra biblical", wouldn't you say?

That is true, but the Holy Spirit's ministry isn't to create an awareness in us of Him, but to point to Christ, right (John 16:14)?

 

[steadfast7]

Chan isn't really talking about fuzzy feelings as much as lamenting the fact that many Christians live without an awareness of his presence, or the impact of his ministry in our lives. So-called Christians live without any evidence of his fruit, victory or power.

Maybe you can help, then. What is the evidence of his fruit, victory and power that you have in mind? That is, what makes a so-called Christian "so-called" in your mind, with respect to this missing fruit, victory and power that I hope you'll define for us?

I'm still reading on, so I'll have a fuller understanding in time, but for now i would guess that he's talking about stuff like boldness in witness, transformation in character, greater godliness, victory over temptation. These are things that are demonstrable, according to him, but we do not see much of it in everyday christian living.

-----Added 10/13/2009 at 11:05:45 EST-----

There certainly is a distinction in their essence. The Holy Spirit is an actual person, after all, not a body of facts. Now if the Holy Spirit is a person, active and working in our lives, then his presence should be "felt" and his impact would be necessarily "extra biblical", wouldn't you say?

That is true, but the Holy Spirit's ministry isn't to create an awareness in us of Him, but to point to Christ, right (John 16:14)?

very good point.

 

[Peairtach]

Quote from steadfast7

I'm still reading on, so I'll have a fuller understanding in time, but for now i would guess that he's talking about stuff like boldness in witness, transformation in character, greater godliness, victory over temptation. These are things that are demonstrable, according to him, but we do not see much of it in everyday christian living.

It's difficult to generalise. My spiritual life may be more cold with relation to God, because I've drifted from God or rebelled, than yours, or vice versa. The solution to that is not to seek the baptism with or by the Holy Spirit - because all true believers are baptised with/by the Holy Spirit by Christ into His body at conversion, but to appreciate again who we are in Christ e.g. Romans 6, that we indeed have been baptised into Christ, and to seek repentance and new obedience. Then we will once again be filled with the Spirit.

We become filled with the Spirit through renewed faith, repentance and new obedience, through reading the Bible and good books, through worship and fellowship, which by the Spirit fill us with fresh love for God in Christ. The Spirit fills us afresh, not by drawing our attention to Him, but to Christ and the Father.

The more we're filled with faith, hope and love for Christ, the quicker progress will be made in sanctification and the bolder we'll be in evangelisation.

If we don't see these things in our own lives, it may be that we are so sanctified that we only see the remaining sin that needs mortified. It is more likely that our brothers or sisters would see progress in our sanctification and maturity than we would.

If these things aren't being seen by us we need to meditate on Christ and what He has done, who we are in Him, and what we have to do to follow His example. And pray that we would become more like Him.

This is true Pentecostalism. What is called "Pentecostalism" is a red herring.

 

[toddpedlar]

Chan isn't really talking about fuzzy feelings as much as lamenting the fact that many Christians live without an awareness of his presence, or the impact of his ministry in our lives. So-called Christians live without any evidence of his fruit, victory or power.

Maybe you can help, then. What is the evidence of his fruit, victory and power that you have in mind? That is, what makes a so-called Christian "so-called" in your mind, with respect to this missing fruit, victory and power that I hope you'll define for us?

I'm still reading on, so I'll have a fuller understanding in time, but for now i would guess that he's talking about stuff like boldness in witness, transformation in character, greater godliness, victory over temptation. These are things that are demonstrable, according to him, but we do not see much of it in everyday christian living.

A couple of issues here.

First, you noted that people without these "power" manifestations are somehow "so-called Christians".

Is that your wording, or Chan's? Either way, I'd suggest you be more circumspect in your language. Just because someone's not on fire preaching the gospel on every streetcorner "with power" does not mean he's merely a "so-called" Christian.

Second, one of the major, major problems I have with the characterization of the Holy Spirit's presence being "felt" in terms of "power" and "boldness", etc., is that when people are told this is necessary (especially if they're told that they're merely 'so-called' Christians if they don't have these manifestations) then they are caused to doubt whether they're saved at all when such manifestations are absent or weak. Your assurance of salvation starts to hang on these manifestations - which it is simply not supposed to hang on. There is MUCH I think unattractive and, indeed, improper in the limitation of the "feeling" of the Spirit's presence in the believer's life to such outward manifestations as you are describing.

 

[Bern]

I've often struggled with this issue, being a member of a moderately charismatic fellowship for the majority of my walk with Christ. People would often say things in services like "we can feel your presence Lord", or "I feel the Lord would say...", or "thankyou for the warmth of your presence when we pray", or "we just sense your arms around us".

Because this was never my experience I doubted my salvation so often, as my experience did not tie in with what everyone else seemed to be experiencing. Baptism in the Spirit was also taught, and I felt like a second rate Christian for a long time, because I prayed and prayed for it, but it never happened.

Since I started on the long winding path to reformation, I've known a blessedness that I've never experienced before, in simply knowing the scriptures better, my understanding of God, and of His salvation being far more real to me than it ever was before.

 

[steadfast7]

A couple of issues here.

First, you noted that people without these "power" manifestations are somehow "so-called Christians".

Is that your wording, or Chan's? Either way, I'd suggest you be more circumspect in your language. Just because someone's not on fire preaching the gospel on every streetcorner "with power" does not mean he's merely a "so-called" Christian.

Second, one of the major, major problems I have with the characterization of the Holy Spirit's presence being "felt" in terms of "power" and "boldness", etc., is that when people are told this is necessary (especially if they're told that they're merely 'so-called' Christians if they don't have these manifestations) then they are caused to doubt whether they're saved at all when such manifestations are absent or weak. Your assurance of salvation starts to hang on these manifestations - which it is simply not supposed to hang on. There is MUCH I think unattractive and, indeed, improper in the limitation of the "feeling" of the Spirit's presence in the believer's life to such outward manifestations as you are describing.

The "so-called" was my wording in attempting to synthesize his thoughts for a post. I used it because he is rather strong about his characterization of believers who are indeed not evidencing the Holy Spirit in their lives - he does make it sound like such believers are not quite up to par (which you rightly note as a major problem). I noticed his trend in his other messages as well. Sorry if this wording was confusing or offensive. I have yet to form an opinion on this, just trying to represent him sufficiently for discussion.

In his defense, he humbly places himself in the same category when he writes:

I'm tired of living in a way that looks exactly like people who do not have the Holy Spirit of God living in them. I want to consistently live with an awareness of His strength. I want to be different today from what I was yesterday as the fruit of the Spirit becomes more manifest in me.

-----Added 10/13/2009 at 02:50:20 EST-----

Certainly, we have already been given every spiritual blessing in Christ, and our fullness of that should not hang on works, nor feelings, etc.

But does he have a point that the activity of the Holy Spirit in our lives should be demonstrable?

 

[Peairtach]

Quote from Bern

Since I started on the long winding path to reformation, I've known a blessedness that I've never experienced before, in simply knowing the scriptures better, my understanding of God, and of His salvation being far more real to me than it ever was before.

And the Spirit has been involved in all that, in helping you to enjoy what you read and in illuminating the Word and in applying it to your heart and life.

All God's people are, spiritually-speaking, prophets (and priests and kings) now.

We were all baptised with/by the Spirit poured out on us by Christ, into His body, at regeneration. Appreciating that more and more, and appreciating it afresh (Romans 6), helps in our spiritual progress by degrees.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a mirror [the Word of God] the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.(II Cor. 3:18)

 

[Jack K]

Let's face it, folks. The Charismatic movement has made us wary of any talk about "experiencing" the Spirit, and rightly so. But as a result, have we come to disregard the personal presence of God with us, living in us daily? After all, don't we live by the Spirit?

I confess alongside the others here that I too easily limit my relationship with God to mere scholarly study. I need to be more in tune with the Spirit. Always in accordance with the Scriptures, of course. After all, he wrote them and he does not change, and in the Scriptures we have his sure and complete Word. But he who teaches my by that Word also opens my heart to understand it. He groans with me in prayer. He comforts me in my struggles. That's personal. I want that!

 

[Peairtach]

Let's face it. Listening to a good sermon or reading a good book is a spiritual experience, even more so if we remember to ask God the Holy Spirit to bless it to us, and to illumine God's Word preached or expounded in a book. And if we thank and worship God for providing such manna from Heaven.