challenge for cessationist

[bigheavyq]

I have a challenge for all you cessationists. Can you give me some concrete reasons for your positions other the standard ones which frankly don't seem plausible to me.
Please don't use II Tim 3:16 and sola scriptura.
Don't use the foundation of apostles and prophets.
and don't use I Cor. 13 about the ceasing of the gifts.
All those I can refute to my defense and so can most non-cessationists.

Many years ago I heard one argument that was different and very challenging. I have yet to see that argument here.
So my challenge is to see who will come up with this argument or a better one.

My goal is for you who differ to use better reasoning to defend your position.

 

[Ianterrell]

Seems like you've already got your mind made up!

 

[bigheavyq]

maybe, I just believe its the biblical view just as I do the doctrines of grace.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Well, since you never answered this in the other thread, and don't have it in your "list" above, what do you make of Deuteronomy 18:20 (ESV): "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die." Do you think that today, you could ever be certain enough that your word is commanded from God so as to meet the criteria of that passage?

 

[fredtgreco]

I have a word from the Lord that you are wrong.

 

[Ianterrell]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
maybe, I just believe its the biblical view just as I do the doctrines of grace.

That's not the point. You aren't interested in hearing arguments based on certain proof texts. Are you trying to teach cessationists (as you seemed to say in your first post) or are you trying to dialogue with them. There's a tangible difference!

Furthermore, what kind of gifts do you believe are in effect today? No cessationist that I know of believes that all the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to the church have ceased. I think the charismatic/third-wave view on the spiritual gifts is too narrow.

 

[bigheavyq]

ok chris

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Well, since you never answered this in the other thread, and don't have it in your "list" above, what do you make of Deuteronomy 18:20 (ESV): "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die." Do you think that today, you could ever be certain enough that your word is commanded from God so as to meet the criteria of that passage?

First of all, I have a problem with any one using "thus saying the Lord" because all prophetic utterance is subjective.
Now if someone gives a word they say comes from God so that he predicts something and proven false should die.
However a prophet can be mistaken and not die. Nathan said to David to build the temple, He was mistaken because he came back with a different word from the Lord. Yes, there are false prophets today as well as false teachers. But the verse you are quoting says nothing about cesationism. It talks about false prophets.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by bigheavyq

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Well, since you never answered this in the other thread, and don't have it in your "list" above, what do you make of Deuteronomy 18:20 (ESV): "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die." Do you think that today, you could ever be certain enough that your word is commanded from God so as to meet the criteria of that passage?

First of all, I have a problem with any one using "thus saying the Lord" because all prophetic utterance is subjective.
Now if someone gives a word they say comes from God so that he predicts something and proven false should die.
However a prophet can be mistaken and not die. Nathan said to David to build the temple, He was mistaken because he came back with a different word from the Lord. Yes, there are false prophets today as well as false teachers. But the verse you are quoting says nothing about cesationism. It talks about false prophets.

Actually no prophetic utterance is subjective. That is the essence of prophecy - man speaks FOR God. That is why the formulaic "thus says the Lord" occurs so many times. When Nathan spoke to David about the temple, he was clearly not prophesying. The non-cessationist must prove that the authoritative word of God comes still to individual men outside of Scripture - if it is not authoritative, it is neither from God nor prophecy. If it is not prophecy, then prophecy has ceased. if prophecy, then it must meet the test of Deuteronomy 18.

 

[bigheavyq]

Originally posted by Ianterrell

Originally posted by bigheavyq
maybe, I just believe its the biblical view just as I do the doctrines of grace.

That's not the point. You aren't interested in hearing arguments based on certain proof texts. Are you trying to teach cessationists (as you seemed to say in your first post) or are you trying to dialogue with them. There's a tangible difference!

First of all, the Bible in Acts and in I Corithians and Ephesians speaks about all the gifts of the Spirit. It is the norm in the church. I believe the burden of proof is on the cessationist.
I am just hoping to sharpen your swords. I have seen these gifts at work throughout my life and I know them to be supernatural unless one can refute all those things I will still be a charismatic.
Furthermore, what kind of gifts do you believe are in effect today? No cessationist that I know of believes that all the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to the church have ceased. I think the charismatic/third-wave view on the spiritual gifts is too narrow.

I believe all the gifts of the Spirit are still for today as they were in the first century. I don't think the Third Wave or charismatic movement is too narrow although they would be better if they would add calvinistic and covenantal postmillenialism to their theology.

 

[bigheavyq]

hey fred,
not all prophecy is the same. not all prophecy is at the same level as scripture. There are many prophecies that went on that are not recorded in the Bible. Yes prophecy is speaking for God, but today it must conform with scripture. Prophecies must be tested. It is subjective in that how does one know if it is really from the Spirit or from their own mind.
However what you are saying is just not convincing.
Come up with a better argument.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
hey fred,
not all prophecy is the same. not all prophecy is at the same level as scripture. There are many prophecies that went on that are not recorded in the Bible. Yes prophecy is speaking for God, but today it must conform with scripture. Prophecies must be tested. It is subjective in that how does one know if it is really from the Spirit or from their own mind.
However what you are saying is just not convincing.
Come up with a better argument.

Jonathan,

Sorry, but your "refutations" are not very convincing. I have yet to see any prophecy from God that was optional. The fact that there was special revelation that was not Scripture is completely beside the point, and no cessationist would ever argue for a complete equivalency of Scripture and special revelation. The cessationist WCF does not argue this.

You are asking the cessationist to try and prove a negative, and I'm not going to bite. Either new prophecy does not add anything to Scripture, and hence it is useless, or it does add something to Scripture, and hence the non-cessationist needs to provide some kind of iron clad objective criteria (like Deut 18) for testing the prophecy, or else we have tyranny of the porphet. "Don't marry her" "why?" "God told me you should not"

Unless you are willing to completely jettison the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture, non-cessationism is not an option.

 

[bigheavyq]

Prophecy is given now as it was then in corinth, etc to individual churches or individuals themselves. My point is that I want to hear better arguments. They are out there. I want to see if anyone can come up with the argument I'm looking for before I tell you what it is.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Jonathan,

You keep using the fact that not all biblical prophecy was included in the canon as evidence that there are different types of prophecy, and then make the jump that some prophecy is thus subjective (and likewise is somehow exempt from Deut. 18). I'm not doing this for the sake of being repetitive, but there is a question I asked you in another thread that was never answered that applies perfectly to this issue:

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Of course not all prophecies were included in Scripture. But do you at least agree that all prophecies in the biblical era were on the same level of authority as Scripture in that they were regarded as the definite and infallible word of God for the time? In other words, do you believe that some prophecies were not included in Scripture because 1) They were not considered to be as definite and authoritative a word of God as were the ones included in Scripture, or because 2) They were specific words applying exclusively to the time-period in which they were spoken, even though they were the definite and authoritative word of God?

I think your answer to that question will help clarify a lot of what we are all talking about (from both sides).

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
It is subjective in that how does one know if it is really from the Spirit or from their own mind.

That statement makes the cessationist point by itself. The purpose of biblical prophecy is to instruct the Church. So if the only way you can know the above distinction is by seeing if a so-called prophecy is backed up by some Scripture, then of what use is that prophecy at all beyond what the Scripture alone gives us?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
Prophecy is given now as it was then in corinth, etc to individual churches or individuals themselves. My point is that I want to hear better arguments. They are out there. I want to see if anyone can come up with the argument I'm looking for before I tell you what it is.

What's the point of keeping the "better argument" a secret? Is this a game or a discussion?

 

[Irishcat922]

I think the New Testatment gives very little instruction on exactly how the gifts are to operate in the Church because they weren't an on going occurance in the Churches. At some point I believe within the life of the Apostles the common occurances ceased. Even the Apostle Paul left someone behind because he was sick, why didn't Paul heal him, if the gifts were still in common use? Paul instructs Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach, a common medicinal use for wine, why didn't the Apostle just give Timothy a thus saith the Lord, and tell Timothy he was healed? I think it was because Paul realized by that time that the gifts were passing away.
I think if you will take a close look at the N.T. Epistles they seem to focus on our relationship to Christ and to one another, and very little on the miraculous gifts.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

A word from Mr. Calvin
It is contrary to God's will for men to neglect scripture and seek fresh revelations.

There are some people who proudly claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. These despise the people who cling to the "dead and killing letter". If they claim to be led by the Spirit of God, it is foolish to think this revelation would be any different from that given to the apostles and prophets who wrote the Word of God.

Paul had once been caught up to the third heaven. He had a right, if anyone had, to claim that he had a special revelation, but he still used scripture and encouraged Timothy to do so. He honours scripture in saying it is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16,17).

When our Lord promised his Holy Spirit, he said he would be one who would not speak of himself, but call to remembrance what Christ himself had taught by spoken words. So the promised Spirit will not give new, unheard-of revelations. He will confirm in our hearts the very same doctrine which the gospel of Christ has given us.

Let this be clear. Those who wish to receive profit and blessing from the Spirit of God must be diligent in reading scripture and in listening to its voice.

To people who say it is an indignity for the Spirit of God who is above all things to be subject to scripture, you may reply that it is no dishonour to the Spirit to be consistent with himself. He is the author of scripture and he cannot change.

To say that those who adhere to the scripture are in bondage to the "killing letter" is playing with words. When Paul said that the letter kills (II Corinthians 3:6) he was opposing false apostles who still clung to the law and would not accept God's new law of grace through Christ. The law does kill when it is separated from the grace of Christ. When it is powerfully impressed on the heart by the Spirit and sets forth Christ, it is the Word of Life.

Real reverence for the Word takes possession of our hearts when the light of the Spirit enables us to see God in the scriptures; and on the other hand, we welcome without fear of' delusion that Spirit which we recognise by his likeness to his own Word.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Good points, Sean. Robertson points out in his book the undeniable decline of mention of the revelatory and miraculous gifts in Paul's later-dated epistles, versus the great emphasis placed on them in his earlier ones.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

B.B. Warfield's book Counterfeit Miracles is a good resource on this subject.

 

[Irishcat922]

I need to reread Warfield it has been probaly ten years or so since I read it.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

I grew in and around the Pentecostal movement and the charismatic movement. Thier considerations for subjective prophetic interpreation is ludicrous to the max. Thier fundamental theological bent is neo-orthodox and existential, not to mention they are cup bearers for men like Hegel and Kant. If you really want to see the arguments for Pentecostalism and charismata evolve, then start pre-Enlightenment, and read a good historical theology overview. It pegs their movement to the hilt. If you have not read Bruner's "Theology of the Holy Spirit" that is the work which destroys Third Wave, Charismatic, Pentecostal, Holiness, etc, theology.

New prophecy is either twofold:

Either it adds to the Bible and is authoritatively binding every time (as it was in the OT and the NT in every instance), thus adding to the Scripture; or it is completely useless since what is stated "cannot contradict Scripture" (i.e. there would be no need for it - just read the bible).

Scripture in Pentecoastalism and Charismania is not sufficient. It is actually, subjectively dealt with which is immediately impacted by the Romantic Period and the Enlightement. Stepping back for 5 seconds at the historical church see this, and the relaity that EVERY TIME charimata "popped up", it was by heretical sects like the Montantists, or Zwickau prophets, in which it emerged.

When I was in Bible college, another Calvinistic student and myself asked the President of the College why we follow the Montantists (the book we were using for the class stated that Pentecostalism follows Montanist in thier understanding of the HS) and he said, "Because that is what our denomination teaches." I've read all the dubious exegesis out there by these guys. If anyone has something "New" to offer - let it ride.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by Paul manata
This is the problem with the continuationists. They redefine everything.

Bingo.

 

[Craig]

I believe all the gifts of the Spirit are still for today as they were in the first century.

Really? Where can I find an apostle? Why do all the "gifts" we see today also resemble pagan practices? Why is it no one comes to a greater understanding of sin and God's holiness from any of these experiences? Why can't any charasmatic explain to me the meaning of their experiences? Why is it that each time I participated in these "worship" services I felt numb? Is that the Holy Spirit?

I could keep going on and on with my questions. The fact of the matter is this: no one can come up with a good explanation/exegesis on why the charasmatic gifts are for today. You'd think God would take advantage of these gifts with the few faithful ministers we have to strengthen the body...yet it's the charlatons that have these "gifts".

 

[Irishcat922]

We saw one once, well at least that is what he claimed yet he didn't manifest any of the signs of an Apostle. I told my son to watch to see if we saw any, and we didn't see one sign, so I told him you shouldn't listen to people like that.

 

[turmeric]

Bruner? What's his full name, I want to find that book!

 

[Irishcat922]

Fredrick Dale Bruner I think.

 

[bigheavyq]

I'm back. Kudos to irishcat and webmaster. However, none of these are going to make a dent into a died in the wool charismatic like me. The one argument I heard which made me really think was the covenantal argument from Bob Burridge (you can find his articles on monergism) at his thursday night Bible study many years ago.
It goes like this:
If one looks at the times of great supernatural events in scripture you will find they occur when a major covenant is being enacted. In Genesis, Exodus, Kings, Gospels, and Acts. Miraculous occurances are their to show God's covenant being enacted.

This is the best argument I've heard for cessationism, and one most charismatics have never heard and will have a hard time refuting.
However, I am a die hard charismatic and probably always will be.

 

[bigheavyq]

Really? Where can I find an apostle?
THEY EXIST EVERYWHERE, EVEN IN YOUR CHURCH. AN APOSTLE IS ONE WHO IS SENT. SOME CALL THEM MISSIONARIES, SOME CHURCH PLANTERS OR SOME WHO IS THE HEAD OF SEVERAL CHURCHES.
Why do all the "gifts" we see today also resemble pagan practices?
HOW ARE THEY PAGAN?
Why is it no one comes to a greater understanding of sin and God's holiness from any of these experiences?
IT HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME
Why can't any charasmatic explain to me the meaning of their experiences?
I CAN TELL YOU THAT I HAVE WITNESSED THINGS THAT HAD TO COME FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Why is it that each time I participated in these "worship" services I felt numb? Is that the Holy Spirit?
I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE YOUR HEART IS NOT WILLING TO ENTER IN BECAUSE YOU ARE SO AGAINST IT.

I could keep going on and on with my questions. The fact of the matter is this: no one can come up with a good explanation/exegesis on why the charasmatic gifts are for today. You'd think God would take advantage of these gifts with the few faithful ministers we have to strengthen the body...yet it's the charlatons that have these "gifts".

 

[Me Died Blue]

Jonathan, you keep simply saying that you don't find our arguments convincing, yet you still refuse to deal with most of them.

 

[bigheavyq]

ok chris I will deal with them, of course you may not like my answers
the scriptures that you bring up to prove cessationism are either out of context or have nothing to do with cessaitionism.
I just don't believe that the prophecies today are for all christians everywhere. those messages are in scripture. the ones to day are for edification and correction of individual churches or people. I seen people prophecy things they could not have known. this brought healing to individuals and churches. I have seen miracles that only could come from God. How does someone explain these away, I can't.
Now, do I approve of everything that goes on in these churches? of course not. I have problems with some of the crazy things that go on in the name of the Spirit. That is why they need reformed theology to balance them out.
Too much is disorderly (like the corinthians) and needs Biblical guidelines and restrictions. I understand why so many are turned off by it, however I find these gifts in the Bible and I believe that they can't be discarded. I do not want to quench the Spirit. and misuse and abuse in these services does not mean disuse or its pagan.

 

[Me Died Blue]

You said,

Originally posted by bigheavyq
I just don't believe that the prophecies today are for all christians everywhere. those messages are in scripture. the ones to day are for edification and correction of individual churches or people.

But again,

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Of course not all prophecies were included in Scripture. But do you at least agree that all prophecies in the biblical era were on the same level of authority as Scripture in that they were regarded as the definite and infallible word of God for the time? In other words, do you believe that some prophecies were not included in Scripture because 1) They were not considered to be as definite and authoritative a word of God as were the ones included in Scripture, or because 2) They were specific words applying exclusively to the time-period in which they were spoken, even though they were the definite and authoritative word of God?