Charismatic Family During a Tragedy

[Caroline]

It's been a while since I visited Puritanboard (other responsibilities having taken over for a while), but my husband and I were wondering if anyone else had dealt with something like this and had any advice to offer ...

My husband's father is suffering from terminal lung cancer. His family is wildly Charismatic, and thus there has been all kinds of prayer for healing (which we have no problem with) and naming and claiming (which we DO have a problem with) and the ol' Satan's-trying-to-get-him-but-we're-not-gonna-let-that-happen nonsense.

My husband's father has now completed about 2/3 of his chemotherapy, and he had a scan which showed that the tumors are diminished (note: diminished, not gone). The family immediately began whooping it up and saying God had healed him. And stuff like, "The doctors said nobody recovers from this, but the Spirit is showing those doctors what's what!" And so on.

For my husband, this is just agonizing, because he cannot say anything about it or ask how his father is doing without them getting really offended and saying that he doesn't have faith. He is the 'backslider' who became a Presbyterian, you see (under my evil influence).

This feels like a hostage situation. We are afraid to say much of anything, and they are loud and bold and going around shouting slogans in every direction. "We've got the victory!" etc. And I am afraid that anything that I say will get shouted down because I don't have the Spirit. (In fact, I'm the worst kind--someone who spoke in tongues and then renounced it, and I didn't even do so quietly). But what they are doing is so disrespectful to my husband while his father is dying. I want to say something, but in my experience, Charismatics only get louder if you try to stop them.

What do you do about things like this?

Edited to add: for those of you unfamiliar with Pentecostalism/Charismaticism--the references to backsliding, etc, are only representing their views. My husband was at no time a real apostate. But anyone who leaves the 'Spirit-filled' realm for those 'dead churches' (their terminology) is 'backslidden' and some would say that we blasphemed the Holy Spirit. My husband's father is a former Reformed minister who now has a website against Calvinism, and so he wasn't thrilled when we became Reformed. He hoped at first we were only going to try to get Reformed people to see the light: "Well, maybe you can minister to them."

I replied, "Maybe they can minister to us." I was desperate for spiritual understanding, and I had no illusions that I was any fountain of spiritual knowledge.

But that was five years ago now. But that raises another question: Should one try to talk to a former Reformed minister about his soul?

 

[Jared]

I am actually walking into a situation that will be similar to this in some ways. I will know in a few days what the outcome of all of it will be, and I will try and remember to tell you how things went.

 

[Mephibosheth]

But what they are doing is so disrespectful to my husband while his father is dying.

Yes it is. I'm so sorry. You have my sympathies and prayers, both for your husband and his father.

But that raises another question: Should one try to talk to a former Reformed minister about his soul?

I say absolutely. The doctrines of sovereign grace lay out the biblical gospel. Not saying of course that non-Calvinists don't believe the gospel, but they sure don't understand it fully. If someone once embraced the fullness of the gospel and later rejected it to the point of having a website set up, that would concern me quite a bit.

 

[Scott1]

No quick answer as you dealing with a number of things.

Acknowledging that there are believers in charismatic/pentecostal churches, and some are used by God to get people saved... it takes awhile to outgrow the flakiness and wrong doctrine.

Thankfully, we can still believe many wrong things and still go to Heaven. The problem is wrong doctrine and practice, whether by ignorance or rebellion is still sin.

Use the access you have to engage the people you describe in the ordinary course of things. You will have opportunity- remember God put you in those situations for a reason.

A few things you can engage them with when opportunity arises:

1) You believe God can heal, and that He does
2) Scripture does not teach that we can command Him to heal (or do anything). To do so is actually offensive to our Creator
3) Why does Scripture describe so many instances of suffering and difficulty that He used for His Honor and His Glory in His Word?

Later,

4) Scripture does not teach that, ordinarily at least, new special revelation, comes through unknown tongues and interpretation now that the Word of God is completed in the language of the hearer. Know the Scriptures so you can explain this.

In the end, be glad has given you access to some of these people. Be faithful. Trust God for the results.

 

[lynnie]

I will pray for you.

I was once told by a brother in law that my "confessing sickness" in his wife ( as I was showing concern and compassion and was in prayer) was just contributing to the enemy's side. He was enraged that I allowed my mouth to speak a negative confession towards her. The vestige of relationship with them ( weddings only pretty much) is still strained.

I would say nothing. They are overcomers by faith, you are not. They are 100 fold Christians and maybe you are 30 fold in their book, maybe, if you are even saved that is. They are on a higher level. You have rejected truth. It is like trying to talk to a Mormon or JW. At the root it is all pride. God knows who to bless. (not lumping all charismatics together, I was one, you can be young and zealous and decieved......but yeah, generally the Reformed do not have the holy spirit.)

Dying and pain have a way of breaking down pride. I would pray and wait, and expect that before the end your F-i-L will bring up spiritual subjects. At that point you can talk about grace and the cross and so forth. But not now.

My opinion only.

 

[itsreed]

So sorry to hear about these things. Maybe a dual approach might help your husband find the right "balance".

Considering the not cast pearls before swine principle, why not simplt ignore the areas of disagreement? That is, your husband does not need to offer any response relevant to the aberrant views on the cancer. I.o.w. avoid discussions in that area like they were cancer.

Instead, your husband should engage his father with the basics of the faith. Conversations dealing with his spiritual condition, his confidence in Christ alone, etc., are always appropriate between those who love one another. Of course the circumstances have provided the moment for the conversation, but if your husband offers the respect of not discussing the areas of disagreement, maybe his father will acknowledge the love of his concern in the most critical area, the state of his soul.

 

[jwithnell]

but if your husband offers the respect of not discussing the areas of disagreement, maybe his father will acknowledge the love of his concern in the most critical area, the state of his soul.

There's wisdom in this! I'd add quietly quoting scripture -- not proof-texting, but speaking through God's all-powerful word.

 

[SueS]

Caroline - I just sent you a PM concerning a different subject.

SueS

 

[Caroline]

Thanks. We have so far said little about disagreements. As people on this thread have noted, we expect it would do little good. It is frustrating. Mostly, I feel so sorry for my husband's father. I think the only thing worse than cancer is having cancer and thinking it is because Satan is winning. Right now, they are on a high because the chemotherapy was somewhat effective. But what happens three months from now when the cancer worsens? In my experience, people die thinking up until the last minute that they did something horribly wrong that gave ground to the devil.

Seeing things like this makes me so relieved to be Reformed--not rejoicing so much as just relieved (who can rejoice over cancer?). I'm disabled and have an autistic son. I can't count the number of times that I have been told that it is because I left Pentecostalism and God is punishing me and that my son is demon-possessed. If I believed it, how terrible would that be. It is heartbreaking to see this and think unless it changes, what the outcome will be. Not that I'm saying that he would go to hell (how could I possibly know that?), but what a horrible way to die.

 

[Cato]

Having gone through this before, I would just try to be there & comforting.... God will console & perhaps in quite times your father in law may just want to discuss the real issues of life that weighs heavy on the heart...what else can you do in times of sickness?

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Prayerfully, things will get better with your father-in-laws' health.

When and if they ask you anything, simply respond from scripture. If they start trying to 'shout you down', simply point out that the Spirit of God brings self-control and shouting someone down is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. Refuse to engage them at that point - respectfully. Let them know when they are ready to pray or discuss any of these things with you, you are here and willing to do so in a respectful and peaceful fashion.

If things worsen, you will have a huge opening to discuss the topic. Be careful how you do so.

I did a talk on this very issue back in 2001 not too far after I became reformed - http://theologicallycorrect.com/interaction/audio/healing.m3u (streaming link).

In all things, you walk them through scripture on the issue - from Job to Joseph and show that the problem with their thinking is that they give Satan too much power in their approach to the topic - power the Bible doesn't say he has. Further, they give man too much power - power over things the Bible doesn't say he has power over. Then you walk them through Romans 8:28-39 slowly.

This isn't a one-day discussion, nor is it a 'we're right' discussion (though pride, after being insulted repeatedly, may push you in trying to argue the topic that way). At the end of it all, your objective should not be to justify yourself and show them wrong, but show them truth and comfort them. Even mention that some of the things they've attacked you on, you understand WHY they thought this way, but when you read scripture, you realized it simply wasn't there.

Whatever you do, make sure you do so as lovingly as possible (since you know that most doctrinal discussions don't go well with charismatic types because they are more hung up on John 13:34-35, than John 8:32-34). Above all else, pray for wisdom on how to respond before, during and after the discussion.

 

[AThornquist]

There has been great advice here, so I will only make an observation: if they really believed that their prayers of faith healing would work, he would not have been put on chemotherapy.

 

[kvanlaan]

Seeing things like this makes me so relieved to be Reformed--not rejoicing so much as just relieved (who can rejoice over cancer?). I'm disabled and have an autistic son. I can't count the number of times that I have been told that it is because I left Pentecostalism and God is punishing me and that my son is demon-possessed

I'm so sorry - and what a burden it must be on them to be living mostly for today.

 

[jogri17]

Not exactly the same situation, only my family were agnostic. If you can tollerate it stay in the room and join in prayer using powerful calvinistic prayer language emphesing the mercy and love of God and God's power to deliever from all in Christ. Calvinists can certainly pray for healing. If you can't pray with them in good conscience just tell them that you feel uncomfortable but you love them and be willing to bring back mcdonalds or something for them. No need to push good theology in that situation, sometimes it is best to serve and show love in action. Read scripture with them. Just some thoughts

 

[dudley]

I will pray for you and I must say I agree with the advice Scott has given in this post. Praying

No quick answer as you dealing with a number of things.

Acknowledging that there are believers in charismatic/pentecostal churches, and some are used by God to get people saved... it takes awhile to outgrow the flakiness and wrong doctrine.

Thankfully, we can still believe many wrong things and still go to Heaven. The problem is wrong doctrine and practice, whether by ignorance or rebellion is still sin.

Use the access you have to engage the people you describe in the ordinary course of things. You will have opportunity- remember God put you in those situations for a reason.

A few things you can engage them with when opportunity arises:

1) You believe God can heal, and that He does
2) Scripture does not teach that we can command Him to heal (or do anything). To do so is actually offensive to our Creator
3) Why does Scripture describe so many instances of suffering and difficulty that He used for His Honor and His Glory in His Word?

Later,

4) Scripture does not teach that, ordinarily at least, new special revelation, comes through unknown tongues and interpretation now that the Word of God is completed in the language of the hearer. Know the Scriptures so you can explain this.

In the end, be glad has given you access to some of these people. Be faithful. Trust God for the results.

 

[tlharvey7]

i just hope that if things worsen, and your father in law dies, they don't try to blame your "negative confession"
as the reason. i know people who have made such accusations.
cling to as much common ground as you can find.... for now

 

[Jared]

Well, the memorial service is over. My cousin died in a car accident. Her parents are pastors in the Assemblies of God, the same denomination that I grew up in. My cousin that died was named Courtney. Her mom, my first cousin, Cyndi, had us listen to a sermon by a pastor that I used to listen to named Bill Johnson. He is in the prophetic movement.

I stopped listening to him a few years ago because he has a habit of going on rants against Calvinism. He has never mentioned Calvinism by name as far as I know, but you know what he's talking about. In the sermon, he envisions a world in which no Christian will believe anymore that if a loved one died, God took them. But instead will understand that God is good and would never do that.

He went so far as to say that God doesn't even 'allow' bad things to happen.

He kind of went in a circle, because at the end, he said that Satan really doesn't win even though he takes peoples life against God's will (in an ultimate sense). Then, he argued that there will be a day of justice and that is where our hope should lie. That's where, according to him, that we should derive all of our comfort.

I do believe that there will be a day of justice where God will punish the devil and all evil-doers. But, I don't think that has to be our only source of comfort.

My cousin said that we shouldn't ask why, not because God is sovereign and has His own wise purposes for everything He does, but because "it's a dead-end road to ask why".

The one thing he didn't say explicitly is that if someone dies, it's because we don't have enough faith. He only said that by implication. It seems like he was trying to say that we could have prevented bad things from happening if only we would have prayed more, fasted more, been more sensitive to the Spirit. As important as those things are, and as much as God may even be able to use those circumstances to show us our need to give more attention to those things, we are really doing damage to the biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God when we deny that God allowed anything like that to happen in any sense.

My cousin, at the end of the sermon said that only did she not believe that God did this, but that God didn't allow it either. She said that the devil took Courtney from them. I understand her wanting to not blame God for this. I also understand her wanting to attribute bad things to the devil and not to God. But, biblically I just can't reconcile what she was saying with scripture. If God didn't allow something in any sense, then we have God's will being thwarted in an ultimate sense and the devil is just as powerful if not more powerful than God.

I think if something like that happened to me, I would be comforted in knowing that God took them from me. God is wise and God is sovereign. God knows what's best. If I know that God is the one that wounded me, then in as Hosea said, I know that he will also heal me. That's not blaming God if you're not shaking your fist at God.

---------- Post added at 04:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 AM ----------

It also seems like they would end up blaming themselves for something they had no control over.

 

[Andres]

My cousin, at the end of the sermon said that only did she not believe that God did this, but that God didn't allow it either. She said that the devil took Courtney from them. I understand her wanting to not blame God for this. I also understand her wanting to attribute bad things to the devil and not to God. But, biblically I just can't reconcile what she was saying with scripture. If God didn't allow something in any sense, then we have God's will being thwarted in an ultimate sense and the devil is just as powerful if not more powerful than God.

This is precisely the problem with that kind of thinking. Good job on discerning that this teaching is contradictory to Scripture.

 

[moselle]

When the topic of miraculous healing comes up in my family and with in-laws (all charismatic / word of faith), I usually make the comment that we can thank the Lord that all true Christians are promised healing - either through miraculous intervention, through wise use of medicine or surgery, or by calling them Home to Heaven and their glorified bodies. We can praise God because all His works are glorious and for the good of His people.