Charismatic Movement still on the rise

[Neogillist]

Check out this article by Barna Research. I think it is a bit alarming that the charismatic movement is still spreading and gaining popularity in America.
Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic? | Church Executive

However, on the up side, I think there is a number of growing "Reformed" Charismatic churches like that of J. C. Mahaney that are very conservative and may help bring Charismatic Christians into a more biblical-based form of Christianity. I am not a strict cessationist myself, since I cannot prove that position either from Scriptures or Historical Theology, but I think that the supernatural gifts have ceased for the most part, except for exorcism in Third World countries. In my perception, the charismatic movement is deceitful because it encourages believers to seek after spiritual experiences rather than proper doctrine and lifestyle. I have heard too many unfulfilled 'prophecies' when I belonged to the charismatic camp, and have experienced many disappointements from thinking that God was revealing to me something special to come. Our sinful minds can easily deceive us, especially when we are in a quest for meaning and happiness.

 

[Jim]

This is a point which I struggle with over here. Most churches with the exception of the former state church (Lutheran) are charismatic.

John MacArthur says in Charismatic Chaos that God no longer speaks today. His Word is closed. We have entered a period of silence much like the period between the testaments.

Brothers in church often (Weekly) say "God told me ____ ."

Where is the center of Biblical tension here?

In what sense does God speak (lead us) and in what sense does he no longer speak?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

However, on the up side, I think there is a number of growing "Reformed" Charismatic churches like that of J. C. Mahaney that are very conservative and may help bring Charismatic Christians into a more biblical-based form of Christianity. I am not a strict cessationist myself, since I cannot prove that position either from Scriptures or Historical Theology, but I think that the supernatural gifts have ceased for the most part, except for exorcism in Third World countries.

I don't see charismatic belief in a so-called "reformed" Church as an up side.

 

[Poimen]

However, on the up side, I think there is a number of growing "Reformed" Charismatic churches like that of J. C. Mahaney that are very conservative and may help bring Charismatic Christians into a more biblical-based form of Christianity. I am not a strict cessationist myself, since I cannot prove that position either from Scriptures or Historical Theology, but I think that the supernatural gifts have ceased for the most part, except for exorcism in Third World countries.

I don't see charismatic belief in a so-called "reformed" Church as an up side.

I would if the Reformed theology came into a professing charismatic congregation. If it is the other way around I would agree with you.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

 

[Davidius]

However, on the up side, I think there is a number of growing "Reformed" Charismatic churches like that of J. C. Mahaney that are very conservative and may help bring Charismatic Christians into a more biblical-based form of Christianity. I am not a strict cessationist myself, since I cannot prove that position either from Scriptures or Historical Theology, but I think that the supernatural gifts have ceased for the most part, except for exorcism in Third World countries.

I don't see charismatic belief in a so-called "reformed" Church as an up side.

I would if the Reformed theology came into a professing charismatic congregation. If it is the other way around I would agree with you.

That's sort of how it happened with the Sovereign Grace guys. They were charismatics and then adopted a thorough Calvinistic soteriology. They still practice the gifts but in a much more controlled, calm form, attempting to use 1 Cor 14 as a model for their use in public worship. I was actually worshipping at one of their congregations before I joined TRPC. I am not a fan of even the toned-down charismaticism, and it does still seem to lead to emotionalism in some ways, but they're a lot better than the charismatic ministries of which I was previously a part. Unfortunately, since they've already built up an entire ministry around the Charismatic/Reformed thing, it will probably be therefore much harder to see a large shift towards a broader Reformed theology.

 

[Pergamum]

Much of the growth of Charismatic theology worldwide occurs in places that have a long history of animism.


THis is not surprising since much Pentecostalism is animistic itself.

As the West frees itself from Enlightenment ideas (i.e. no supernaturalism) it will be increasingly interested in the supernatural and open to wild religious beleifs. Pentecostalism will only continue to rise for at least a decade or two I believe.

 

[Neogillist]

Much of the growth of Charismatic theology worldwide occurs in places that have a long history of animism.


THis is not surprising since much Pentecostalism is animistic itself.

As the West frees itself from Enlightenment ideas (i.e. no supernaturalism) it will be increasingly interested in the supernatural and open to wild religious beleifs. Pentecostalism will only continue to rise for at least a decade or two I believe.

You're totally right. I lived in Malaysia for two years (1998-2000) and was shocked to see how strong the charismatic movement was over there. For instance, almost all Hindus and Tribal people converting to Christianity would become Pentecostals. Almost all of them would practise tongue-speaking (glossolalia) and try to impose it on others. One time, one guy told me tongue-speaking was very important because it prevented the devil from understanding our prayers. Try to find Scriptural support for that. Overall, I think that Pentecostalism is a lot like Quakerism; a mixture of Christianity and mysticism or Animism, just like Roman Catholicism is a syncretism of Paganism with Christianity. The modern phenomenon of tongue-speaking appears to be an influence from the New Age stuff that is so common to Eastern Religions like Yoga. If you read about it on Wikipedia, glossolalia has also been observed in Voodoo religion:

"Glossolalia has also been observed in shamanism and the Voodoo religion of Haiti." Glossolalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[KMK]

Thanks for that very interesting article.

I found this to very interesting:

Many people believe that charismatic Christianity is almost exclusively a Protestant phenomenon. However, the research showed that one-third of all U.S. Catholics (36%) fit the charismatic classification. Framed differently, almost one-quarter of all charismatics in the U.S. (22%) are Catholic.

One of my best friends was saved in the 'Charismatic Renewal' in the RCC back in the 70s.

 

[MeanieCalvinist]

Much of the growth of Charismatic theology worldwide occurs in places that have a long history of animism.


THis is not surprising since much Pentecostalism is animistic itself.

As the West frees itself from Enlightenment ideas (i.e. no supernaturalism) it will be increasingly interested in the supernatural and open to wild religious beleifs. Pentecostalism will only continue to rise for at least a decade or two I believe.

I have just begun reading Christianity's Dangerous Idea
by Alister McGrath where he addresses the current impact Pentecostalism is having on the world.

Has anyone on here read this book?

 

[Pergamum]

Neogillist: Wow, Malaysia for two years. I am heading there next week for 2 weeks. Where at?

 

[moral necessity]

The Charismatic circle was a natural offshoot of the Arminian Perfectionist movement. John Wesley opened the door a crack, in that perfection was the goal to which we could come near, yet he never said it was possible. Charles Finney kicked the door open; and Hannah Whitehall Smith followed through. Both spoke of behavioral perfectionism or entire sanctification as being within our grasp, because of the work of Chirst. The charismatics just "hit the equal button" and applied it to the emotions as well as the behavior, for complete perfection would entail both.

A little leven levens the whole lump!

See Warfield's work on Perfectionism for the connection.

Blessings!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I don't see charismatic belief in a so-called "reformed" Church as an up side.

I would if the Reformed theology came into a professing charismatic congregation. If it is the other way around I would agree with you.

That's sort of how it happened with the Sovereign Grace guys. They were charismatics and then adopted a thorough Calvinistic soteriology. They still practice the gifts but in a much more controlled, calm form, attempting to use 1 Cor 14 as a model for their use in public worship. I was actually worshipping at one of their congregations before I joined TRPC. I am not a fan of even the toned-down charismaticism, and it does still seem to lead to emotionalism in some ways, but they're a lot better than the charismatic ministries of which I was previously a part. Unfortunately, since they've already built up an entire ministry around the Charismatic/Reformed thing, it will probably be therefore much harder to see a large shift towards a broader Reformed theology.

Right. I'm not unfamiliar at all with Charismatic movements. My appraisal is that the movements are really controlled by a desire for a certain kind of religious expression and then Scriptures are marshalled to try to defend the position. The ambiguity in the cessation of charismatic gifts will always provide enough wiggle room to justify the practices but the underlying motivation is the real root of the problem. I don't think that there is anything purposefully insidious in people who do this but I do think it's misguided.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Thanks for that very interesting article.

I found this to very interesting:

Many people believe that charismatic Christianity is almost exclusively a Protestant phenomenon. However, the research showed that one-third of all U.S. Catholics (36%) fit the charismatic classification. Framed differently, almost one-quarter of all charismatics in the U.S. (22%) are Catholic.

One of my best friends was saved in the 'Charismatic Renewal' in the RCC back in the 70s.

I'm a "child" of that movement in the RCC. My Priest believed in being baptized in the Holy Spirit and I first "spoke in tongues" at his bible studies on Sunday Night. I don't know if they still do it but they had Life in the Spirit seminars.

The telling thing about Charismatic movements, as a general rule, is how they completely diminish or even destroy the substance of worship (Who you're worshipping or Why you're worshipping Him) in place of form (Excitement, Feeling, Hand-raising, etc).

I remember getting angry with a guy about 13 years ago who was trying to tell me that there was a difference in what RCC's believed and what Protestants believed because I was still convinced that the only difference between RCC's and Protestants was that RCC's were "traditionalists" and real Christians were excited about their faith. It didn't matter what I was excited about, just that I was excited. I actually chose a non-denominational Church not for what it confessed but for the form of worship: dynamic and "worshipful".

I look back now and realize how vaccuous and banal it all was but it does highlight the fact that in the Charismatic movement there is neither RCC nor Protestant but all are one in a vague religious experience that focuses on excitement and "being in tune with the Spirit."

 

[FenderPriest]

I don't see charismatic belief in a so-called "reformed" Church as an up side.

I would if the Reformed theology came into a professing charismatic congregation. If it is the other way around I would agree with you.

That's sort of how it happened with the Sovereign Grace guys. They were charismatics and then adopted a thorough Calvinistic soteriology. They still practice the gifts but in a much more controlled, calm form, attempting to use 1 Cor 14 as a model for their use in public worship. I was actually worshipping at one of their congregations before I joined TRPC. I am not a fan of even the toned-down charismaticism, and it does still seem to lead to emotionalism in some ways, but they're a lot better than the charismatic ministries of which I was previously a part. Unfortunately, since they've already built up an entire ministry around the Charismatic/Reformed thing, it will probably be therefore much harder to see a large shift towards a broader Reformed theology.

Us Sovereign Grace guys have "cooled" down over time as the Puritans have taught us to grow in our doctrinal life. However, I think that most of what people are associating with "those charismatics" is not really a main thrust in Sovereign Grace Ministries. For a lot of us SGer's, the desire for the spiritual gifts stems from our deep desire to love and honor God, and to be obedient to where we're seeing the Scriptures leading God's people. It's the desire to know God, in all his infinite worth. It's not like we're raving lunatics after spirutalized experiences - we want both our hearts and minds set aflame for God - and we're pursuing that in a way that we see the Scriptures teaching. At least for us, I see the spiritual gifts serving our desire for love God with a heart set aflame with what we know, see, and love about God as he's clearly shown himself in Scripture. Having our emotions running for God isn't a bad thing - but as Edwards says, it's just not our foundation, God is. Just thought I'd share a little here...

Soli Deo Gloria,
~Jacob

 

[Blueridge Believer]

Anywhere people do not live by 'faith' they seek after signs. "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign".

 

[Stephen]

I am not completely familiar with Sovereign Grace Ministries (other than they have some great music) but I have a greater concern for the charismatic element in Reformed denominations like the PCA. There are those in PCA circles that believe in the continuation of the revelatory gifts after the apostolic age. Some believe in canonical and non-canonical revelation. This is the position that has been held by men like Jack Deere and Wayne Grudem. I find this position to be strange and problematic for Reformed churches. Any thoughts or discussion on this matter?

 

[FenderPriest]

I am not completely familiar with Sovereign Grace Ministries (other than they have some great music) but I have a greater concern for the charismatic element in Reformed denominations like the PCA. There are those in PCA circles that believe in the continuation of the revelatory gifts after the apostolic age. Some believe in canonical and non-canonical revelation. This is the position that has been held by men like Jack Deere and Wayne Grudem. I find this position to be strange and problematic for Reformed churches. Any thoughts or discussion on this matter?

Wayne Grudem (and Sovereign Grace Ministries) do not believe that the spiritual gift of prophesy (in the New Testament and today) is canonical. It's a gift for encouragement, but it is not authoritative. I don't know anything about Deere. Grudem's book on the gift of prophesy should help anybody seeking to understand folks like Grudem, Piper, Mahaney (and Sovereign Grace Ministries).

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not completely familiar with Sovereign Grace Ministries (other than they have some great music) but I have a greater concern for the charismatic element in Reformed denominations like the PCA. There are those in PCA circles that believe in the continuation of the revelatory gifts after the apostolic age. Some believe in canonical and non-canonical revelation. This is the position that has been held by men like Jack Deere and Wayne Grudem. I find this position to be strange and problematic for Reformed churches. Any thoughts or discussion on this matter?

Wayne Grudem (and Sovereign Grace Ministries) do not believe that the spiritual gift of prophesy (in the New Testament and today) is canonical. It's a gift for encouragement, but it is not authoritative. I don't know anything about Deere. Grudem's book on the gift of prophesy should help anybody seeking to understand folks like Grudem, Piper, Mahaney (and Sovereign Grace Ministries).

Wayne Grudem and the others are wrong.His writing encourages error. When you say; When anyone starts saying-

It's a gift for encouragement, but it is not authoritative.

If it is not authoritative, it is not from God.
Grudem writes some nonsense in His systematic theology where he shows revelation coming to a persons mind, but when the person speaks it in his own words, it is no longer the direct word of God?
on pages 1056-1057 he says;

prophecy occurs when a revelation from God is reported in the prophets own[merely human] words

? earler on page 1056 he makes other weak references,like from the "epistle of barnabas"- this is "generally what the Holy Spirit is saying to us" ?/
He also states that if someone 'really thinks" the Holy Spirit is putting something on their mind,there is nothing wrong with saying;

it seems to me that the Lord is saying, or I think the Lord is putting this on my mind

.
This is rubbish. He injects his own philosophy into his teaching.
Most of these quasi-charasmatics are trying to hold open or hold out for the supposed prayer tongue.[ a secret prayer language that satan cannot understand! which in reality is just the rhyming jibberish sounds that are not any actual language at all]
My guess is that this rhyming noise is a substitute for assurance of salvation that would come from lawful obedience to scriptural teaching,and instead by this subjective experience[ rhyming noises] the person could "feel" the "annointing".
I have not worked through all of his writing, so I cannot comment on the complete work he has offered. It seems as if he has taken from other systematic theologies,modified the language, offered different sides of the issues, then add his own twist. Sort of like the [ bible answerman,Hank H.]

 

[Eoghan]

Westminster and London both cessationist

I was surprised to read that some here are not "strict cessationists" in applying to join I subscribed to the London Confession which is expressly cessationist.

The distinction however rests with whether we still have Apostolic Signs and Wonders or not. I have no problem with anyone sending for the church elders to heal and God healing. I do however have a problem with a one man (or woman) ministry claiming they have the gifts.

We have won the debate on inspiration - not so on the sufficiency of scripture when it comes to charismatics.

Let it be said that tongues is a phenomenon shared with mormons, eskimos, certain muslim sects and hindus... In short it would appear to be a taught ability. It is NOT the recognisable language scripture leads us to expect!

I used to think charismatics were fairly harmless. Not so now, faith healings which don't work are responsible for deaths! Just consider the current court cases http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2119116.ece: :worms

I speak as one who was in the charismatic movement and did/does speak in tongues. I was taught/coached how to do it.

With hindsight I would agree with James Packer who in a Q. and A. session in Glasgow said that you had to understand scats singing in order to understand modern day tongues. Scats singing is "warbling" to jazz music Scat singing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- it is a skill anyone can learn be they Roman Catholic or Muslim. They can then "warble" to the glory of Mary or Mohamed - it is not a spiritual gift at all!

In an ironic twist the rise in false prophets who are preoccupied with eschatology is a real confirmation that we are in the end times!

 

[Stephen]

Iconoclast is right. Wayne Grudem is absolutely wrong. Prophecy in Biblical times was for the sole purpose of communicating truth. Hebrews 1:1 tells us that God spoke through prophets in latter times, but now He has spoken through His Son. There is no need for the prophetic gifts today. My eariler comment was in reference to those who make a distinction between canonical revelation (the kind that was used by prophets before the close of the N.T) and non-canonical revelation that is still continuing, i.e Grudem's encourgement. There is no such distinction between canonical and non-canonical revelation. Revelation was given in latter times and is now complete. The word of God is our authority. The gifts that were used to communicate prophecy have ceased. The cessasionist position is clearly an historic Reformed teaching.

 

[FenderPriest]

I have not worked through all of his writing, so I cannot comment on the complete work he has offered. It seems as if he has taken from other systematic theologies,modified the language, offered different sides of the issues, then add his own twist. Sort of like the [ bible answerman,Hank H.]

I'd encourage you to read his book where he expands the discussion and addresses some objections you may hold on this issue. I think the does a good job of discussing the issues involved. I would object that he is nothing like Hank H. You might disagree with him, but I'd encourage you to give him a fair hearing.

~Jacob

 

[KMK]

I was surprised to read that some here are not "strict cessationists" in applying to join I subscribed to the London Confession which is expressly cessationist.

See this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f30/rutherford-gift-prophecy-wcf-27106/

 

[Iconoclast]

I have not worked through all of his writing, so I cannot comment on the complete work he has offered. It seems as if he has taken from other systematic theologies,modified the language, offered different sides of the issues, then add his own twist. Sort of like the [ bible answerman,Hank H.]

I'd encourage you to read his book where he expands the discussion and addresses some objections you may hold on this issue. I think the does a good job of discussing the issues involved. I would object that he is nothing like Hank H. You might disagree with him, but I'd encourage you to give him a fair hearing.

~Jacob

FP,
I have listened to Hank Hanegraff for a few years and I have heard how many of his teachings have changed in the last few years. He has spoken often about his books, and how he at one point had taken a stand against much of the false teaching.ie, he has often played many audio clips of the actual word of faith heretics, false teaching, prophecies and tongues.
I am thankful for that.To expose error is helpful.
There has been a rather alarming downturn in his teaching however. He has some really serious issues in my opinion on the following;
Libertarian freedom> Hank turns into the bible philosophy man,rather than the bible answerman
The role of woman/as pastor's> claims there can be woman pastors,cites Prisilla and Aquilla? as an example?
Sign Gifts/Tongues> keeps the door open,saying that most of what goes on today is not correct, but it still can happen sometimes

He used to say these things can be debated vigorously but we do not need to divide over them.
He was raised in home where his dad believed in the doctrines of grace,which he consistently resists.
He has said many times if calvinists are correct,we would be robots and "love would be rendered meaningless"
James White called him on this on the air several years ago,and has not been invited back on since. Hank had gone into his libertarian freedom speech and James white simply respondeed by saying- well Hank that might be an interesting philosphical point of view, but let's get back to what does the scripture actually teach! They quickly went to station break, and soon after Hank came out in print in his bible answer book.
Again we can not know a persons heart motives, but we can examine their actions. He seems to me to be a loose cannon.
Keeping the door open on many of these issues as if it can be either or is not helpful. Better to take a stand, like many here on the PB, and face the music
Hopefully, in constantly going over the issues and being exposed to the different views we can be used to help each other come to a more accurate teaching of biblical truth.
What about charasmatics, or sovereigngrace charasmatics? I treat people as brother's but try to get into the scripture alone with them, ask questions plant seed in their minds. Some on the board held these ideas at one time, but now hold a more scriptural position

 

[FenderPriest]

Hey guys, I just wanted to pass along this blog entry by C.J. Mahaney that might be on interest to some on this issue: Books on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit