Charity to the poor...only for those within the church?

[Edward]

That is why I bolded my proof.

First, you do understand, don't you, that both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?

Second, and you might not understand, that they were speaking of a corporate action, not individual, one on one, interactions.

So, for these two reasons, the scripture quoted doesn't support your proposition.

Now do not get me wrong, the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor with their own money if God providentially provides. Think about this for a moment, in that what if a Pastor has a neighbor who is needy, does he ask His congregation to give to the neighbor?

To be clear, I'd answer your question with a 'yes'.

 

[Pergamum]

Jesus fed and healed many indiscriminately, both Jew and Gentile. We are to follow the example of Jesus.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

I've had several Reformed Baptist pastors assert that a Christian has no duty to give to the poor outside the church.

You must run in some very strange circles. Who were these men? How many is "several"? Where did they "assert" this? I don't know of a single confessional Reformed Baptist pastor that would espouse that view. It certainly isn't representative of Reformed Baptists in general. With zero evidence to support such a claim, and without the ability to check whether yours is a fair characterization of their view, it just comes across as a cheap smear against Reformed Baptists. And that wouldn't surprise me since lately, it would appear you have something of an axe to grind against RB churches and pastors.

 

[Pergamum]

You must run in some very strange circles. Who were these men? Where did they "assert" this? I don't know of a single confessional Reformed Baptist pastor that would espouse that view. It certainly isn't representative of Reformed Baptists in general. With zero evidence to support such a claim, and without the ability to check whether yours is a fair characterization of their view, it just comes across as a cheap smear against Reformed Baptists. And that wouldn't surprise me since lately, it would appear you have something of an axe to grind against RB churches and pastors.

Ah sure, knowing me, how can you trust anything I say, after all.

I heard it just yesterday from an RB church (name withheld because they are good folks otherwise). It seems to be a variation of what Edward is advocating.

And yes, I am grappling with some of the deficiencies of our movement (the tendency towards heavy shepherding, spiritual arrogance, and the lack of outreach). It's not been a steller year for US Reformed Baptist churches.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Ah sure, knowing me, how can you trust anything I say, after all.

On matters relating to Reformed Baptists it would seem not, given your admitted prejudice.

I heard it just yesterday from an RB church (name withheld because they are good folks otherwise). It seems to be a variation of what Edward is advocating.

Ah, a "variation." On such subjects, details matter a great deal in actually understanding their position instead of misrepresenting their views and charging them with a deficiency of love to their neighbors. You admittted yourself they were an otherwise godly church. Have you thought of reaching out to the pastor to allow him to clarify, explain, or defend his position. It may prove enlightening.

And yes, I am grappling with some of the deficiencies of our movement (the tendency towards heavy shepherding, spiritual arrogance, and the lack of outreach). It's not been a steller year for US Reformed Baptist churches.

The three things you mention here are hard to define and easy to criticize even when their is no basis for it and extremely difficult to defend against. I think you are wrong about these things, but regardless, you admit your bias and should be careful that it not to lead you to unfair criticisms of Reformed Baptist brethren. That would be harmful to them and unsafe for you.

 

[TheReppingRev]

We are to show our love one to another, first and foremost, as it is a showing of bearing one another's burdens and a visible demonstration of the Fruit of the Spirit.

We are to treat the sojourner and the deposed with equal amounts of love, showing them a taste of what fellowship within our community and with our God is to look like. We lead by example, but if we do not faithfully practice within our own congregation, we will have no ability to exercise it outside faithfully.

I know of many instances where charity was solely external and those within were buried under circumstances with no hand of aid given or second glance of a charitable nature bestowed.

 

[earl40]

First, you do understand, don't you, that both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?

Second, and you might not understand, that they were speaking of a corporate action, not individual, one on one, interactions.

So, for these two reasons, the scripture quoted doesn't support your proposition.

Seems to me we are reading something different.

 

[Pergamum]

On matters relating to Reformed Baptists it would seem not, given your admitted prejudice.

Ah, a "variation." On such subjects, details matter a great deal in actually understanding their position instead of misrepresenting their views and charging them with a deficiency of love to their neighbors. You admittted yourself they were an otherwise godly church. Have you thought of reaching out to the pastor to allow him to clarify, explain, or defend his position. It may prove enlightening.

The three things you mention here are hard to define and easy to criticize even when their is no basis for it and extremely difficult to defend against. I think you are wrong about these things, but regardless, you admit your bias and should be careful that it not to lead you to unfair criticisms of Reformed Baptist brethren. That would be harmful to them and unsafe for you.

Why don't you address the topic instead of your perceptions of me.

If you want to talk about the health of the American Reformed Baptist church in America, I am ready to roll with that topic, too, so start a different thread. It has several unhealthy tendencies that I am not afraid to point out.

 

[Pergamum]

The stated position of this particular church is that they are only commanded to exercise charity towards fellow believers. I can go back and clarify, but they stated "only" instead of "primarily."

As Edward has pointed out rightly, our duties start and are primarily concerned with fellow believers. But I believe there are verses that speak to general charity to all the needy we encounter as well. Especially in times of great need.

There are questions, of course, about how to determine need, and many churches find it necessary to have some sort of policy so as not to be drained dry by those unwilling to work.

On the other extreme, I've seen some broadly evangelical churches who have exercised mercy ministries in such a way that it seems like 10s of thousands of dollars are wasted each year that would better have been served by supporting missionaries or needy pastors doing more evangelistic work.

Of course, it is hard to fault any church when a hurricane hits and the church takes up an offering to help those who have lost homes in the storm. But we could say then as well that such funds could have supported struggling pastors in true reformed churches instead of victims of a storm who may never even attend church.

And as Andrew states above, the poor widow in our own congregation seems to have more priority than a stranger 5 states away.

What are some policies that some of your churches use to help determine need and priority of giving?

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Why don't you address the topic instead of your perceptions of me.

You decided to say this was the position of "several Reformed Baptist pastors." You could have had a discussion about the topic without linking it to Reformed Baptists, but you did. I find the claim rather incredible. So I responded.

If you want to talk about the health of the American Reformed Baptist church in America, I am ready to roll with that topic, too, so start a different thread. It has several unhealthy tendencies that I am not afraid to point out.

Oh I have no doubt you could go on and on about everything you think is rotten and terrible about Reformed Baptists.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Moderation:
Please stick to the topic. Yes, it is good to have a helpful discussion on the relationship between social justice and the church, but keep the discussion civil and edifying please.

 

[Edward]

6 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Seems to me we are reading something different.

Looks a good bit like Acts 6 to me. As Matthew Henry says, "An unhappy disagreement among some of the church-members...." (Emphasis supplied).

Thus my comment "both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?"

 

[Pergamum]

Examples of mercy ministry towards all people (especially those outside the church):

• A food pantry is established by the church and the needy are helped without relation to whether they believe or not.
• Outsiders and even the homeless are invited to church meals.
• The church may sponsor groups that meet that are not necessarily Reformed. Suicidal or depressed or at-risk groups. Even recovering addicts.
• Church families may be sponsored to help church members adopt.
• Churches may engage in pro-life ministries that are not necessarily explicitly religious.
• A disaster hits locally and the local church becomes a center of help and lodging.

During times of plague, the Christian faith grew in the Roman Empire.

"Rodney Stark, author of The Rise of Christianity, argues that some of the marked growth of the church in the early centuries can be attributed to care and compassion Christians showed for the sick. He tracks increased conversion rates during three plagues: the Antonine plague (2nd c.), the Cyprian plague (3rd c.), and the Justinian plague (6th c.). Christians demonstrated their love for God and biblical values, and they offered a very attractive witness."

https://www.str.org/blog/the-witness-of-christian-compassion#.XYAQEygzZPY


And the first chapter of the Didache says:

"Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."
6. But concerning this it was also said, "Let thine alms sweat into thine hands until thou knowest to whom thou art giving."


The Shepherd of Hermas states:

“assist widows, visit orphans and the poor, ransom God’s servants, show hospitality, help oppressed debtors in their need.”


And the Emperor Julian even had to admit:

"It is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever had to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people [pagans] lack aid from us."

 

[ZackF]

I’m still at a loss at the purpose of the thread as reformed Baptists on the PB have spoke in contradiction to the experience recounted by Perg. It seems his opinion was settled before posting. Most in the thread have responded with a variation of “the church first and then with discernment others as means allow.”

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Michael Horton's book "The Gospel Commission", especially part 3, is very helpful here. I don't have time to expand but he gives some fine examples of charity and mercy ministry in church history, while at the same time gives full clarity to the gospel and what the churches primary responsibilities should be. I find him very balanced.

 

[Pergamum]

Michael Horton's book "The Gospel Commission", especially part 3, is very helpful here. I don't have time to expand but he gives some fine examples of charity and mercy ministry in church history, while at the same time gives full clarity to the gospel and what the churches primary responsibilities should be. I find him very balanced.

Thanks. Yes, I have read and been impacted by that book.

 

[Ben Zartman]

Our church deals with this as well--the pastors get multiple calls a week from people with a hard-luck story looking for handouts. Our policy is to give them a grocery store gift card after they attend the Lord's Day service. Those who are seeking funds to pay for immigration lawyers (these are pretty common requests in our area) we remind that the primary mission of the church is the care of their souls, not social justice, and we are not qualified to give legal advice or aid.
Since the care of souls is our first responsibility, the church sends funds to missionaries and native pastors in other lands, as well as helping local churches with occasional needs, but we don't do much with secular charities. So much for the church.
Individually, though, we are called to love even our enemies to the point of feeding them when hungry and giving them to drink, though it heap coals of fire on their heads. So if my neighbor is in need, I don't go to the church to secure a handout for him--I help him myself. I don't believe that helping my neighbor's ox out of a ditch or returning to him a runaway cow should be limited to whether he's a member of the covenant community: I believe it's my duty to do it regardless, because God has put a person in need into my path. That's partly how our light shines before men--when we do good to those even who despitefully use us and abuse us.
So while church members individually can help their neighbor paint his house or fix his car, it is not the mission of the Church to do those things. Bit of a distinction; I hope it came across clear.

 

[De Jager]

We are to do good to all, especially to those of the household of faith. However, I have indeed wondered about the scriptural warrant for the church to help the poor. It seems to me that the role of the organized church (elders and diaconate) is to take care of the needs of the sheep and use the keys of the kingdom. I think churches can get distracted when the leadership gets involved in mercy ministries. Certainly it is not within the role of elders. The question is it in the role of the diaconate. I have no problem with individual believers or groups of believers forming organizations to provide mercy. Of course the danger is that we fall into a social gospel.

 

[Pergamum]

Our church deals with this as well--the pastors get multiple calls a week from people with a hard-luck story looking for handouts. Our policy is to give them a grocery store gift card after they attend the Lord's Day service. Those who are seeking funds to pay for immigration lawyers (these are pretty common requests in our area) we remind that the primary mission of the church is the care of their souls, not social justice, and we are not qualified to give legal advice or aid.
Since the care of souls is our first responsibility, the church sends funds to missionaries and native pastors in other lands, as well as helping local churches with occasional needs, but we don't do much with secular charities. So much for the church.
Individually, though, we are called to love even our enemies to the point of feeding them when hungry and giving them to drink, though it heap coals of fire on their heads. So if my neighbor is in need, I don't go to the church to secure a handout for him--I help him myself. I don't believe that helping my neighbor's ox out of a ditch or returning to him a runaway cow should be limited to whether he's a member of the covenant community: I believe it's my duty to do it regardless, because God has put a person in need into my path. That's partly how our light shines before men--when we do good to those even who despitefully use us and abuse us.
So while church members individually can help their neighbor paint his house or fix his car, it is not the mission of the Church to do those things. Bit of a distinction; I hope it came across clear.

Yes, I get the distinction. It is helpful.

 

[mgkortus]

Pergamum,

I find the following four passages most instructive on this matter:

· Galatians 6:9-10– In this passage, Paul exhorts the church to do good unto all men, especially unto those who are of the household of faith. This passage instructs us to place special emphasis in tending to the needs of our spiritual brothers and sisters, and highlights the concept of “moral proximity” that Kevin DeYoung expounds upon his book entitled: What is the Mission of the Church? If you have not read it, the principle of moral proximity is that the closer the need, the greater the obligation to help. This does not refer strictly to geography, but how connected we are to someone based on familiarity, kinship, space, or time. As DeYoung writes, “The intensity of our moral obligations depends on how well we know the people, how connected they are to us, and whether those closer to the situation can and should assist first” (Pg. 184). Therefore, the church's benevolent fund is rightly distributed first to those within the congregation and then more broadly to those within a denomination for example. However, this passage calls us to do good unto all men, which is differentiated from those who are believers. When the needs a congregation and denomination have been met, this passage thus calls us to provide help the indigent persons outside the church when we have opportunity.

· 2 Corinthians 8-9– In this passage Paul exhorts the church to generosity on the basis of the grace they received. He calls for those who have an abundance to relieve the necessities of the brethren. Reflecting on especially 2 Cor. 8:13-15, Kevin DeYoung, in the same book mentioned above, writes: “The basic principle here is pretty easy to understand: Christians with more than enough ought to share with Christians who don’t have enough” (Pg. 168).

· Luke 10:25-37– The account of the Good Samaritan. This passage instructs us not to worry about defining who is or is not our neighbor, but to worry about being a good neighbor. We do not limit our love to only those who we want to love. Instead, we love those whom God places in our path, regardless of their background, race, etc. Again, Jesus’ emphasis on compassionate giving of resources and care outside of normal cultural/religious boundaries remains the obligation of those who would show the love of Christ.

· Luke 6:27-36– Here, Jesus exhorts his followers to do good to those who hate them and who manifest themselves to be enemies. Even sinful unbelievers willingly show kindness to those who will return the same; however, we are called to be merciful to all men, even the most despicable—for God is merciful to us who by nature hate Him. Therefore, we do not limit acts of love and mercy to those within the walls of the church.

 

[Pergamum]

Pergamum,

I find the following four passages most instructive on this matter:

· Galatians 6:9-10– In this passage, Paul exhorts the church to do good unto all men, especially unto those who are of the household of faith. This passage instructs us to place special emphasis in tending to the needs of our spiritual brothers and sisters, and highlights the concept of “moral proximity” that Kevin DeYoung expounds upon his book entitled: What is the Mission of the Church? If you have not read it, the principle of moral proximity is that the closer the need, the greater the obligation to help. This does not refer strictly to geography, but how connected we are to someone based on familiarity, kinship, space, or time. As DeYoung writes, “The intensity of our moral obligations depends on how well we know the people, how connected they are to us, and whether those closer to the situation can and should assist first” (Pg. 184). Therefore, the church's benevolent fund is rightly distributed first to those within the congregation and then more broadly to those within a denomination for example. However, this passage calls us to do good unto all men, which is differentiated from those who are believers. When the needs a congregation and denomination have been met, this passage thus calls us to provide help the indigent persons outside the church when we have opportunity.

· 2 Corinthians 8-9– In this passage Paul exhorts the church to generosity on the basis of the grace they received. He calls for those who have an abundance to relieve the necessities of the brethren. Reflecting on especially 2 Cor. 8:13-15, Kevin DeYoung, in the same book mentioned above, writes: “The basic principle here is pretty easy to understand: Christians with more than enough ought to share with Christians who don’t have enough” (Pg. 168).

· Luke 10:25-37– The account of the Good Samaritan. This passage instructs us not to worry about defining who is or is not our neighbor, but to worry about being a good neighbor. We do not limit our love to only those who we want to love. Instead, we love those whom God places in our path, regardless of their background, race, etc. Again, Jesus’ emphasis on compassionate giving of resources and care outside of normal cultural/religious boundaries remains the obligation of those who would show the love of Christ.

· Luke 6:27-36– Here, Jesus exhorts his followers to do good to those who hate them and who manifest themselves to be enemies. Even sinful unbelievers willingly show kindness to those who will return the same; however, we are called to be merciful to all men, even the most despicable—for God is merciful to us who by nature hate Him. Therefore, we do not limit acts of love and mercy to those within the walls of the church.

Great quotes. Do you think these quotes apply to the organized local church structure or merely to individual Christians as the need arises?

 

[Nate]

Our church deals with this as well--the pastors get multiple calls a week from people with a hard-luck story looking for handouts. Our policy is to give them a grocery store gift card after they attend the Lord's Day service.

This is a good policy. We have many homeless people and individuals in difficult financial situations in our area and use a similar policy. We've purchased grocery cards that do not allow purchase of alcohol/tobacco/lottery etc, and distribute them to individuals who ask for help. When we give them the cards, we invite them to the upcoming worship service as well as put them in contact with the deacons. The large majority do not come to worship, don't respond to the deacons, and stop asking for help after one or two iterations of this, but some have attended worship and received diaconate care for a while.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

We take up a benevolence offering each month at the conclusion of the Lord's Supper for the support of a local ministry that serves the poor.

When someone who is not a member applies to us for assistance, we will help. But we observe the following guidelines...

• A person must apply for help in person at one of our stated meetings which they are asked to attend. People who take advantage of churches often call on a week day and demand a pastor drop everything and provide help immediately. Refusing to be rushed weeds out number of bad apples.
• We do not provide transportation. There have been exceptions to this rule, but in general, experience has taught us to avoid it.
• When the service they attend concludes, they can speak with the deacon(s) and explain their situation and the nature of their need. We make no promises of help until after we have been able to discern a real need.
• We ask for some form of identification and try to get basic information about where they live and what if anything they do for a living. If we discover they are lying to us, we go no further and provide no help.
• We have zero tolerance for people who are demanding, entitled, or abusive. When this is observed, the process ends and we provide them no help.
• We only make payments to third parties (e.g. utility company), not the one applying for assistance.

We have found these policies helpful in our efforts to help those who come to us for assistance and weed out the ones who are trying to take advantage of the church.

 

[Taylor]

We take up a benevolence offering each month at the conclusion of the Lord's Supper for the support of a local ministry that serves the poor.

When someone who is not a member applies to us for assistance, we will help. But we observe the following guidelines...

• A person must apply for help in person at one of our stated meetings which they are asked to attend. People who take advantage of churches often call on a week day and demand a pastor drop everything and provide help immediately. Refusing to be rushed weeds out number of bad apples.
• We do not provide transportation. There have been exceptions to this rule, but in general, experience has taught us to avoid it.
• When the service they attend concludes, they can speak with the deacon(s) and explain their situation and the nature of their need. We make no promises of help until after we have been able to discern a real need.
• We ask for some form of identification and try to get basic information about where they live and what if anything they do for a living. If we discover they are lying to us, we go no further and provide no help.
• We have zero tolerance for people who are demanding, entitled, or abusive. When this is observed, the process ends and we provide them no help.
• We only make payments to third parties (e.g. utility company), not the one applying for assistance.

We have found these policies helpful in our efforts to help those who come to us for assistance and weed out the ones who are trying to take advantage of the church.

This is very helpful.

Many churches do not employ such policies because they are afraid it will make them look selfish or stingy. However, generosity toward the needy and financial wisdom or stewardship are not enemies, but close friends.

 

[earl40]

Looks a good bit like Acts 6 to me. As Matthew Henry says, "An unhappy disagreement among some of the church-members...." (Emphasis supplied).

Thus my comment "both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?"

No doubt we agree though it seems you disagreed with my first post.

"the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor with their own money if God providentially provides.

 

[VictorBravo]

To be fair to Perg, I have occasionally heard something similar in my circles. I do think deacons should be entrusted with determining how to spend scant resources, and it may well be that a general policy of "members first" becomes practically "members only."

But, as a counter-balance, I've seen deacons of those churches listen to members requesting aid for non members they have met. I recall an offering to have a neighboring man's leaky house re-roofed.

There is always a need for case-by-case determination that defies "policy." Some churches do not adopt formal mercy missions--I'm not sure such a thing is required of a church. Personal duty to the poor requires similar discernment.

I never give to local panhandlers, for example, because they are addicts, able-bodied, regulars, and have an organized approach (sign sharing, shifts, locations, etc.).

But then last Spring I ran across a former client sitting in the rain babbling incoherently and shivering. He was coming down from meth and hypothermic. He hadn't eaten in two days. It was all of his doing, of course. But I still felt pain at his condition and spent a couple of (precious to me) hours trying to get him warm, fed, and squared away with resources. Calling authorities takes time, the police were tired of dealing with him.

We can only do so much. Compassion fatigue is real though. May God grant us wisdom and compassion in these matters.

 

[py3ak]

• We do not provide transportation. There have been exceptions to this rule, but in general, experience has taught us to avoid it

Our local police warned us quite strongly never to provide transportation directly. Community churches contribute to a fund administered by the police department, who have available resources, experience, and discretion to provide food, lodging, and transportation.

If someone is known to the congregation, payments may be made to third parties on their behalf, or grocery store gift cards provided.

 

[Edward]

There is always a need for case-by-case determination that defies "policy."

Well, a well drafted policy will have procedures for addressing the exceptional cases.

 

[mgkortus]

Great quotes. Do you think these quotes apply to the organized local church structure or merely to individual Christians as the need arises?

I think the principles behind them apply to both the local church and the individual. In the book, DeYoung makes the case that the work of the church is first and foremost the preaching of the gospel. He takes aim at those who wish to make the mission of the church center on social justice issues. However, he does address the matter of helping others, as the quotes indicate.

My view: While it is not the local church's responsibility to take care of the poor outside of the church, nevertheless, when God has blessed us with far more than we need, it is good for the church to look for opportunities to help others (applying the principle of moral proximity).

 

[OPC'n]

I think it's Biblical to help your family members, then church members, then those outside the church in that order. We should strive to help where we can.