Children part of the NT Church in Scripture

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Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Larry wrote:-
Acts 2:39, "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

The Word of God is quite glorious. Nothing is as clear and simple as this, and should silence all doubts except those who impress upon the text what their system requires of it.

Amen! Glorious, clear and simple it certainly is. Tell me, Larry, what is the promise referred to? Verse 38 might help you.

Given a choice I will believe Christ over any denomination.

Amen again! That's why I don't belong to a denomination, but to an independent evangelical church.

Martin
 

WrittenFromUtopia

Puritan Board Graduate
From the Sum of Saving Knowledge in the Westminster Divines:
The Sum of Saving Knowledge is this:

The woeful condition which all men are in by nature, through breaking of the covenant of works.
The remedy provided for the elect in Jesus Christ by the covenant of grace.
The means appointed to make them partakers of this covenant.
The blessings which are effectually conveyed to the elect by these means.
Consider these four points

1. Our woeful condition by nature, through breaking the covenant of works.

Hos 13.9 "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself."

1a) In eternity past, God did most wisely decree, for his own glory, whatever comes to pass in time: and in a most holy and infallible manner executes all his decrees, without being author of the sin of any creature.

1b) God originally made everything from nothing, perfect. He made our first parents, Adam and Eve, the root of mankind, both upright and able to keep the law written in their hearts. This law they were naturally bound to obey upon penalty of death. God was not bound to reward their service, till he entered into a covenant or contract with them, and their posterity in them. He promised to give them eternal life, upon condition of perfect personal obedience. If they failed they would die. This is the covenant of works.

1c) Both angels and men were subject to the change of their own free will. God alone is unchangeable. Many angels of their own accord fell by sin from their first estate, and became demons. Our first parents, being enticed by Satan, one of these demons, broke the covenant of works, by eating the forbidden fruit. By this action, they, and their posterity, became not only liable to eternal death, but also lost all ability to please God. They became by nature enemies to God, and to all spiritual good, and were only inclined to do evil continually. This is our original sin, the bitter root of all our actual transgressions, in thought, word, and deed.

2. The remedy provided in Jesus Christ for the elect by the covenant of Grace.

"O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help." Hos 13.9

2a) Albeit man, having brought himself into this woeful condition, is neither able to help himself, nor willing to be helped by God out of it, but rather inclined to lie still, insensible of it, till he perish; yet God, for the glory of his rich grace, has revealed in his word a way to save sinners, that is, by faith in Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, by virtue of, and according to the tenor of the covenant of redemption, made and agreed upon between God the Father and God the Son, in council of the Trinity, before the world began.

2b) The sum of the covenant of redemption is this: God having freely chosen to life a certain number of lost mankind, for the glory of his rich grace, did give them, before the world began, to God the Son, appointed Redeemer, that, upon condition he would humble himself so far as to assume the human nature, of a soul and a body, to personal union with his divine nature, and submit himself to the law, as surety for them, and satisfy justice for them, by giving obedience in their name, even to the suffering of the cursed death of the cross, he should ransom and redeem them all from sin and death, and purchase to them righteousness and eternal life, with all saving graces leading there to, to be effectually, by means of his own appointment, applied in due time to every one of them. This condition the Son of God (who is Jesus Christ our Lord) did accept before the world began, and in the fulness of time came into the world, was born of the Virgin Mary, subjected himself to the law, and completely paid the ransom on the cross: But by virtue of the foresaid bargain, made before the world began, he is in all ages, since the fall of Adam, still upon the work of applying actually the purchased benefits of the elect; and that he does by way of entertaining a covenant of free grace and reconciliation with them, through faith in himself; by which covenant, he makes over to every believer a right and interest to himself, and to all his blessings.

2c) For the accomplishment of this covenant of redemption, and making the elect partakers of the benefits of it in the covenant of grace, Christ Jesus was clad with the threefold office of Prophet, Priest, and King: made a Prophet, to reveal all saving knowledge to his people, and persuade them to believe and obey the same; made a Priest, to offer up himself a sacrifice once for them all, and to intercede continually with the Father, for making their persons and services acceptable to him; and made a King, to subdue them to himself, to feed and rule them by his own appointed ordinances, and to defend them from their enemies.

3. The outward means appointed to make the elect partakers of this covenant, and all the rest that are called, to be inexcusable.

"Many are called." Matt. 22.14

3a) The outward means and ordinances, for making men partakers of the covenant of grace, are so wisely dispensed, as that the elect shall be infallibly converted and saved by them; and the reprobate, among whom they are, not to be justly damned: The means are especially these four:

3a1) The word of God 3a2) The ordinances 3a3) Church 3a4) Prayer

In the word of God preached by sent messengers, the Lord makes offer of grace to all sinners, upon condition of faith in Jesus Christ; and whoever does confess their sin, accept Christ's offering, and submit themselves to his ordinances, he will have them received into the honour and privileges of the covenant of grace. By the ordinances, God will have the covenant sealed for confirming the bargain on the foresaid condition. By the Church, he will have them hedged in, and helped forward to the keeping of the covenant. And by prayer, he will have his own glorious grace, promised in the covenant, to be daily drawn forth, acknowledged, and employed. All these means are followed either really, or in profession only, according to the quality of the covenanters, as they are true or counterfeit believers.

3b) The covenant of grace, set down in the Old Testament before Christ came, and in the New since he came, is one and the same in substance, albeit different in outward administration: For the covenant in the Old Testament, being sealed with the ordinances of circumcision and the paschal lamb, did set forth Christ's death to come, and the benefits purchased by it, under the shadow of bloody sacrifices, and various ceremonies: but since Christ came, the covenant being sealed by the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's supper, does clearly hold forth Christ already crucified before our eyes, victorious over death and the grave, and gloriously ruling heaven and earth, for the good of his own people. 4. The blessings which are effectually conveyed by these means to the Lord's elect, or chosen ones.

"Many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 12.14.

4a) By those outward ordinances, as our Lord makes the reprobate inexcusable, so, by the power of his Spirit, he applies to the elect, effectually, all saving graces purchased to them in the covenant of redemption, and makes a change in their persons. In particular,

4a1) He does convert or regenerate them, by giving spiritual life to them, in opening their understandings, renewing their wills, affections, and faculties, for giving spiritual obedience to his commands.

4a2) He gives them saving faith, by making them, in the sense of deserved condemnation, to give their consent heartily to the covenant of grace, and to embrace Jesus Christ unfeignedly.

4a3) He gives them repentance, by making them, with godly sorrow, in the hatred of sin, and love of righteousness, turn from all iniquity to the service of God.

4a4) He sanctifies them, by making them go on and persevere in faith and spiritual obedience to the law of God, manifested by fruitfulness in all duties, and doing good works, as God offers occasion.

4b) Together with this inward change of their persons, God changes also their state: for, so soon as they are brought by faith into the covenant of grace,

4b1) He justifies them, by imputing to them that perfect obedience which Christ gave to the law, and the satisfaction also which upon the cross Christ gave to justice in their name.

4b2) He reconciles them, and makes them friends to God, who were before enemies of God.

4b3) He adopts them, that they shall be no more children of Satan, but children of God, enriched with all spiritual privileges of his sons.

4b4) And, last of all, after their warfare in this life is ended, he perfects the holiness and blessedness, first of their souls at their death, and then both of their souls and their bodies, being joyfully joined together again in the resurrection, at the day of his glorious coming to judgment, when all the wicked shall be sent away to hell, with Satan whom they have served: but Christ's own chosen and redeemed ones, true believers, students of holiness, shall remain with himself for ever, in the state of glorification.

Reprobates can and do take part in the covenant of grace - the New Covenant - but not with any spiritual blessings. The Spirit of God is said to work in the reprobate in the same manner it works in the elect, but for different purposes - a purpose we can't and never will understand. "Many are called, but few are chosen."

This is the authorial intent behind the WCF LC Q#31. Enough misrepresentation, Martin. Thanks and good day.
 

Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Larger Catechism Q 31:-

Q31. With whom was the covenant of grace made?
A31. The covenant of grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in Him with all the elect as His seed.

Gabriel wrote:-
Reprobates can and do take part in the covenant of grace - the New Covenant - but not with any spiritual blessings. The Spirit of God is said to work in the reprobate in the same manner it works in the elect, but for different purposes - a purpose we can't and never will understand. "Many are called, but few are chosen."

This is the authorial intent behind the WCF LC Q#31.

Gabriel, what you have written is in total contradiction to what the Catechism says, and with no explanation as to why this might be. This leads me to three conclusions:-

1. You actually haven't got a clue as to what Larger Catechism Q 31 means.

2. You are trying to cover this ignorance by cutting and pasting a pile of verbiage from the S.S.K. which nowhere mentions LC 31.

3. You have a nerve accusing me of not answering questions as you did on the exegetical forum, and an even bigger nerve accusing me of misrepresentation as you have here.

Thank YOU and good day.

Martin
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Hey Gabe,

It might help if you lose the idea of the OC being abolished at 70 AD. It was not - but before, during Christ's works.

As impressive as a physical destruction of a building may be, what is it compared to the signs of Christ's crucifixion; resurrection; ascension and Pentecost?

Why were there signs of the end of the age in Matt. 27? The temple curtain torn; darkness, earthquake, rocks split; the dead raised? Get it?

Don't spend too much time on the Gentry Roundabout.

:bigsmile:

Robin

[Edited on 7-19-2005 by Robin]
 

Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Hi Paul,
I'm in the middle of packing for my holiday, so I can't reply line by line.

However, you are clinging to Heb 10:30 like a drowning man clinging to a piece of timber. But it won't take the weight you're putting on it. First of all, it can't be considered outside the context of the rest of the chapter, especially vs 17 and 39, which clearly speak of the security of those in the NC. Secondly, v30 is a warning to these Hebrews not to return to the OC. That is the reason for the OC quotation. 'There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus', but if they were to go back to Judaism, they would prove that they were never in the New Covenant and be liable to the threatenings of the Old.

When I get back, if you want to discuss the whole chapter in context, I shall be delighted to do so with you.

Martin
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Ok...I'll dazzle you guys with another question....


As to circumcision, why cut THERE? (!)

Seriously, do you suppose it might enlighten us about what circumcision is all about and how it relates to baptism?

Why THERE?

(This question was posed by my teacher, Dr. Kim Riddlebarger.)

r.

:detective:
 

WrittenFromUtopia

Puritan Board Graduate
Hey Gabe,

It might help if you lose the idea of the OC being abolished at 70 AD. It was not - but before, during Christ's works.


strawman.jpg
 

Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by Robin
Ok...I'll dazzle you guys with another question....


As to circumcision, why cut THERE? (!)

Seriously, do you suppose it might enlighten us about what circumcision is all about and how it relates to baptism?

Why THERE?

(This question was posed by my teacher, Dr. Kim Riddlebarger.)

r.

:detective:

Excellent question, Robin!

Might it have something to do with a coming Seed?

Martin
 

Peters

Puritan Board Freshman
Paul, thanks for answering my questions. Please permit me a few more.

I'm not alone in this mind you, but I hold that there are elect and non-elect in the *new covenant,* not the CoG.

Do you believe that the NC is a fuller, brighter administration of the COG than the Abrahamic Covenant was?

I do not believe that the NC and the CoG are *identical.*

What is the sign for COG membership? How do you know if someone is in this Covenant?
 

Peters

Puritan Board Freshman
1. The New Covenant is more glorious, as Scripture teaches.
2. The only evidence we have that someone is elect is the fruit they produce, from our ectypal perspective

Paul, I worded the first question the way I did for a particular reason. I would like to know if you think the NC is a *fuller* administration of the COG than the Abrahamic Covenant. That is, does it reveal more clearly the COG than the Abrahamic Covenant did? Is this what makes it "œmore glorious"?


If this is so, then is it not still according to a covenant of lesser light that you apply the sign? If the temporal, historical covenants are shedding more clarity on the COG as redemptive history moves forward, why not only apply the sign to those who are in the COG (according to the evidence) since it is the reality of the COG that the NC is anticipating?
 

Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Paul wrote:-
Do what you wish, Martin. Calvin, henry, et al. interpret that verse in the way I do. So this is nothing new.

Calvin does not misuse this verse the way you do. Actually, some of his comments are more in my favour.
God is said to rise to judge His people in the sense that He separates the godly from the hypocrits (Ps. 145:20 ). Similarly Ps. 125:3, where the prophet is speaking about the extermination of hypocrits SO THAT THEY DO NOT BOAST ANY MORE THAT THEY BELONG TO THE CHURCH.........

Splendid stuff! Perhaps if he'd lived a bit longer, Calvin might have become a Baptist :p

Cheerio,

Martin
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
If no one has any issues with this, I am closing this thread as it has proven to be overdone.

:fork removed:

[Edited on 7-19-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
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