Christian Hedonism ( John Piper) - Is it right? - articel

[The Gentile]

[quote:dcd688a220]Much of what is brought forth out of contemporary Christian music, in my opinion, breaks the RP. Now, this is not to say that one should exclude the USE of contemporary music in their worship altogether, just that one would need to be quite selective in exactly one brings to the table in this regard. For listening pleasure, one person might find it worshipful, another not. To me, if the lyrics are not theologically sound, out it goes. [/quote:dcd688a220]

This is a good point, Scott. I agree with you. Biblically, i think it's impossible to maintain the argument that "these" noninspired songs are acceptable, but "those" aren't. And, "this" instrument is acceptable for musical accompaniment, but "that" one isn't.


[quote:dcd688a220] The above article is an argument from scripture. Just pointed out that the author is british, that's all.[/quote:dcd688a220]

Ok, i thought you made it a point of perception. Just to note: the use of Scripture in an argument doesn't make the argument a biblical one. But i can't really take that it up with Dr Masters :grin:

 

[Radar]

Masters:

Look at me! I'm over here! Hey! Hello?! Yoo Hoo! Need attention here! Comin' after you next! Hey! Please!?

 

[JonathonHunt]

Eh? You yanks are weird sometimes...

 

[Me Died Blue]

[quote:4031da8c46][i:4031da8c46]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:4031da8c46]
For example, I have seen some members say that they love Caedmons Call. I recall looking over the lyrics on the 2nd CC album (green cover) and saw alot of scripture, but no Jesus mentioned. To me, this is a tragedy. I am not aware if the previous or follow up albums mention the name of Jesus (For the record, I do not accept -implication- as a justifier. No Jesus, out you go!).[/quote:4031da8c46]

Does John Newton's "Amazing Grace" mention Jesus apart from implication? Do the PSALMS mention Jesus apart from implication??? I don't understand your problem with having some songs that don't [i:4031da8c46]explicitly[/i:4031da8c46] mention Jesus. A good sample of a typical Caedmon's Call lyric is, "I am thankful that I'm incapable of doing any good on my own." What's wrong with a song that focuses on thanking God for that type of theme, just because it doesn't [i:4031da8c46]explicitly[/i:4031da8c46] mention Jesus? (And for the record, there are many, many songs of theirs that [i:4031da8c46]do[/i:4031da8c46] mention Christ explicitly. One example is in their song "We Delight": "We're delivered by blood that flows from the Tree, draw us near to You, vessels of your mercy. Before the invention of man, glorious Trinity.&quot

[quote:4031da8c46][i:4031da8c46]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:4031da8c46]
I believe someone also embraced U2 as a Christian group. Ridiculous! I used to be a U2 fan. In fact, my flesh still desires their music.[/quote:4031da8c46]

I definitely agree that U2 is by no means a Christian band. But your saying "my flesh still desires their music" confuses me - are you saying you think it's wrong to listen to secular music?

In Christ,

Chris

[Edited on 3-24-2004 by Me Died Blue]

 

[Scott Bushey]

What did Paul say, "All things are permissable, but all things are not [i:ee15cb73d3]profitable[/i:ee15cb73d3]"?

 

[alwaysreforming]

Contemporary Worship Music

I left "Luvr of the Word" 's church because I moved to a different state (St. Paul's Pres. ROCKED, however!!! (thanks, Craig) ... and anyway, the new church I attend (PCA) uses a mixture of contemporary and traditional. I don't have a problem with "contemporary" per se, but what I DO have a problem with is when we substitute a newer song that is only marginaly good, for one of the tried and tested hymns that were so great from the hymnal. If we're gonna bring in a new song, lets make it have a WHOLE LOT going for it so it warrants a place in our precious line-up. So many of them have rather trite lyrics, and the music behind it sounds either cheesy and/or just not very masterful.

I love a lot of the new stuff; there's a lot of good out there. But one of the reasons I like the older hymns so much, besides the mastery of both theology (lyric) and melody, is that it sounds "different." It sounds "set apart" for worship. When we try too hard to give newcomers what they're used to on the "outside" I think we're shortchanging them to an extent. They don't care that our music is different than what they hear outside the church, they EXPECT it!

And for you, Scott: I used to be the world's BIGGEST U2 fan! In fact, I was just listening to some today. I was listening to "Gloria" and the lyrics were:

"... I try to stand up, but I can't find my feet. I try to speak up, but only in You I'm complete. Gloria, in te dominae; gloria exultate!"

Yep, they rock! (but no, not a "Christian" band) In fact, I knew a lady who was very good friends with Bono, and she said he used to read the Bible EVERY day (but this was about 15 years ago). I think since then he's probably lost a bit of his "Biblical zeal".

 

[Scott Bushey]

Paul,
I agree..........


Christopher,
I am 45 years old. I saw U2 in a club in san Antonio, Texas while about 35 Mexicans watched in awe. I could have comfortably lied on the floor about 3 feet from Bono.........

I was a punker for years. Music WAS my God. I have the marks to prove it. And yes, for me, certain music is wrong. Some bring back the memories. When I hear "I will Follow", my mind does things.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Scott, now I understand what you meant before, since some U2 songs are inevitably attached to memories and thoughts in your mind. At first I had thought you were saying it was wrong to listen to them at all...but after all, you never said that, you only said that [i:81474f7971]your[/i:81474f7971] flesh still desires their music sometimes--so I guess I was assuming too much and putting words in your mouth. Sorry about that.

In Christ,

Chris

 

[JonathonHunt]

[quote:92d19e9626][i:92d19e9626]Originally posted by alwaysreforming[/i:92d19e9626]
I left "Luvr of the Word" 's church because I moved to a different state (St. Paul's Pres. ROCKED, however!!! (thanks, Craig) ... and anyway, the new church I attend (PCA) uses a mixture of contemporary and traditional. I don't have a problem with "contemporary" per se, but what I DO have a problem with is when we substitute a newer song that is only marginaly good, for one of the tried and tested hymns that were so great from the hymnal. If we're gonna bring in a new song, lets make it have a WHOLE LOT going for it so it warrants a place in our precious line-up. So many of them have rather trite lyrics, and the music behind it sounds either cheesy and/or just not very masterful.

I love a lot of the new stuff; there's a lot of good out there. But one of the reasons I like the older hymns so much, besides the mastery of both theology (lyric) and melody, is that it sounds "different." It sounds "set apart" for worship. When we try too hard to give newcomers what they're used to on the "outside" I think we're shortchanging them to an extent. They don't care that our music is different than what they hear outside the church, they EXPECT it!

And for you, Scott: I used to be the world's BIGGEST U2 fan! In fact, I was just listening to some today. I was listening to "Gloria" and the lyrics were:

"... I try to stand up, but I can't find my feet. I try to speak up, but only in You I'm complete. Gloria, in te dominae; gloria exultate!"

Yep, they rock! (but no, not a "Christian" band) In fact, I knew a lady who was very good friends with Bono, and she said he used to read the Bible EVERY day (but this was about 15 years ago). I think since then he's probably lost a bit of his "Biblical zeal". [/quote:92d19e9626]


Alwaysreforming, your post is right on - excellent. Couldn't agree more. A lot of modern lyrics are 'ok' but are they as good as what we already have? Usually not! Nothing wrong with altering quaint words in old hymns to make them usable incidentally. (I mean minor changes, not ripping the whole thing apart to take the 'thees and thous' out!)

You're right about sounding different too. Hymn/Psalm singing is distinctive and I like it that way.

We also have a huge amount of stuff under 'contemporary'. Most PB members might think they sing 'contemporary' hymns or have 'contemporary' tunes to sing them to. Well, my previous church used about 650 tunes, and I suppose up to about 100 were either new (last 15 years) or substantially re-edited. Of the new ones, no-one would ever think they were new...because they were in 'traditional style'. So, are they 'contemporary' by our definition?

A lot of what is called 'contemporary christian music' in the UK is simply a rock band performing in front of a group of head bangers who call themselves a church. That's a world away from some new hymns and tunes that go with them, isn't it!

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by JonathanHunt]

 

[FrozenChosen]

[quote:2c139e65a9][i:2c139e65a9]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:2c139e65a9]
[quote:2c139e65a9]
Pastor Masters would point in particular to ...modern worship music in Pastor Piper's church.
[/quote:2c139e65a9]

Oh good heavens, NO! Anything but contemporary worship music! Everyone knows how dangerous it is to be contemporary.

Masters should find something better to complain about than that.

[Edited on 11-6-2003 by luvroftheWord] [/quote:2c139e65a9]

Perhaps I can explain a recent experience I've had that might show why I would shy away from "contemporary worship music."

I'm am finishing up my Freshman year here at Auburn and a lot has gone on. I joined up with BCM (Baptist Campus Ministries) because I had a friend that went there. I read [i:2c139e65a9]Chosen By God[/i:2c139e65a9] early in my first semester and I was a well-grounded Calvinist. Fortunately, half of the students in leadership positions were closet Reformed Baptists and so we got along pretty well. The music was decent and non-distracting, and the lyrics weren't wrong but left a bit to be desired. (The instruments consisted of two guitarists who sung, an acoustic bass and a djembe hand drum)

While I attended BCM I went to First Baptist Opelika a handful of times. The college "Sunday school" program was known as Revolution. We're talking rock band material. They'd play basically covers of the more contemporary worship stuff (think Third Day) and they'd act like rockers more than ministers. Their guitarist made that "ohwowthisishardtoplayIrockforhittingthesenotes" kind of face as he played extremely simple [u:2c139e65a9]guitar solos[/u:2c139e65a9]. The music actually wasn't that great, and the lyrics were unimpressive. If you wanted to be taught, it would be better to sit in a corner with earplugs and read a psalm.

I don't even want to touch on the disgusting choral theatrics of the main service (the traditional one even).

Fast-forward to around February or so. I began to go to Encounter, a sort of inter-campus ministry organization. Similar to Revolution, although the speaker was a Piper fan. I could finish some of the speaker's lines before he did. Anyways, the worship was a little bit better lyrically, but there was also a percussive element of the show, and the fact that I instinctively said "show" might clue you in to how it felt.

I also will point out that one of my friends spoke more highly of the guitarist's abilities (riffs and effects and all) than the message given that evening.

In early March I finally knuckled down, starved for good teaching and good musical worship, and I went to RUF like a good Presbyterian. I was stunned. I can't describe my first experience there as anything but a delicious and humiliating feast on God's Word.

The "band of musicians" felt more like a "band of ministers." There were two guitarists, a bassist, a pianist, and a hand-drum djembe guy. The music was well done, not so as to be distracting by either high skill or lack of skill, and served as a well pleasing backdrop.

We sung hymns and some later praise music with great lyrics.

My point in all my ramblings is that Masters is probably going against the trend of contemporary worship in the fact that 1) it emphasizes a quick emotional response over teaching, a true change, the state of your heart, and prayer, and 2) is generally comprised of poor lyrics and rock music theatrics.

(((EDIT)))

I underlined "guitar solos" for a reason, I just forgot to get to it.

Perhaps the most nauseating thing in a "worship meeting" for me is a guitar solo. Usually they distract from the reflection on the lyrics and focus on "hey look at my musical skill."

Also, as a music fan, they're revolting in the sense that they're horribly simple. The point of a guitar solo is to wow you with technicalities.

If I want a guitar solo I'll listen to some Van Halen, some Led Zeppelin, or some Dream Theater.

[Edited on 4-4-2004 by FrozenChosen]

 

[robot]

Last summer I went to a highschool retreat at one of the big lakes in Southern California. The worship band was the most theatrical thing I have ever seen in my entire life. Every song had a light show and movies/pictures changing on a massive projector corresponding with it. The band pretty much ripped off Radiohead, Sigur Ros, and Mogwai, but added Vineyard-esque vocals to it. It was unbearable.
The worship band also sold hats, shirts, and cds on the outside of the "worship ampitheatre."

I don't mind if worship isn't 100% old hyms, but still... it shouldn't bring glory to the people singing, all glory must go to God.