Christians and alcohol

[Calvibaptist]

ahurm...in best Baptist fashion...I bring a motion to call this thread "done!"

I'd also like to add it to the potential topics covered in the Debates area.


any seconds?

I'll drink to that...

Sorry! I couldn't pass it up!

 

[bwsmith]

bwsmith,
Would you admit that God's word labels certain alcoholic beverages as a blessing from God as well as something which must be handled with care? This is one part of the other side's arguments to which I don't think I've seen you respond.

Well, I am not sure what to “admit” to!

The discussion has prompted me to do a bit more reading – and praying for all the kind men who have thoughtfully and forcefully commented on my initial analogy that [insisting on one’s right to drink] is a dangerous gamble.

The blessing that wine is never unmixed, for it is received by men whose hearts are well described by Jeremiah – and this applies to all created things, even chocolate, and our children.

Searching on several buzz words, I found a series of three outlines on the (proper) use of wine, tragic abuse that bedevils the church today. The first is listed in this link: http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg1936.htm

 

[VictorBravo]

ahurm...in best Baptist fashion...I bring a motion to call this thread "done!"

I'd also like to add it to the potential topics covered in the Debates area.


any seconds?

It can't be done until I add a little scripture about diluted wine!:

Isaiah 1:21-22: "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water"

The alcohol purifies the water.

BTW. I believe the alcohol content of wine is not simply a function of the amount of sugar. The yeast dies after the alcohol level gets too high for them to survive. The wine can contain more sugar, but the yeast will still die when the alcohol the produce gets too concentrated. ... So I wonder how hardy the yeast was back then? Could it produce the same levels of alcohol as todays commercially cultivated yeast? Maybe todays yeast can produce higher levels of alcohol.

Anthony, did you miss my point about using native yeast (in other words, wild, found in nature)? It is good for up to 12% alcohol, and, as was pointed out, even higher.

 

[Civbert]

Anthony, did you miss my point about using native yeast (in other words, wild, found in nature)? It is good for up to 12% alcohol, and, as was pointed out, even higher.

I did miss that. Thanks.

 

[Davidius]

Well, I am not sure what to “admit” to!

I was hoping you would admit that God's word speaks very favorably of alcohol alongside its admonitions to caution. However, it seems like you've managed to write another few paragraphs while continuing to dodge that issue, as you've already done repeatedly throughout the course of the thread.

 

[Civbert]

Isaiah 1:21-22: "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water"

Thanks for the verse.

Seeing that this is a metaphor - it doesn't mean mixing water with wine is a bad thing. The point of the metaphor is how the city was not pure like the way wine is diluted when mixed with water. It has less value and less taste.

 

[bwsmith]

It can't be done until I add a little scripture about diluted wine!:

Isaiah 1:21-22: "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water"



Anthony, did you miss my point about using native yeast (in other words, wild, found in nature)? It is good for up to 12% alcohol, and, as was pointed out, even higher.

The verse from Isaiah challenged me, esp. since I said wine in Bible times was “diluted.”
So, I looked up what some commentators might say on Isaiah 1:22, “Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: . . .”

[Wine mixed with water] An image used for the adulteration of wines, with more propriety than may at first appear, if what Thevenot says of the people of the Levant of late times were true of them formerly. He says, "They never mingle water with their wine to drink; but drink by itself what water they think proper for abating the strength of the wine." . . . The Turks never mingle water with their wine, and laugh at the Christians for doing it, which they consider altogether ridiculous."

It is remarkable that whereas the Greeks and Latins by mixed wine always understood wine diluted and lowered with water, the Hebrews on the contrary generally mean by it wine made stronger and more inebriating by the addition of higher and more powerful ingredients, such as honey, spices, defrutum, (or wine inspissated by boiling it down to two-thirds or one-half of the quantity,) myrrh, mandragora, opiates, and other strong drugs. Such were the exhilarating, or rather stupifying, ingredients which Helen mixed in the bowl together with the wine for her guests oppressed with grief to raise their spirits, the composition of which she had learned in Egypt:
. . .

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary )​

Also, my friend Matthew Henry wrote:

Thy wine is mixed with water, and so has become flat and sour. Some understand both these literally: the wine they sold was adulterated, it was half water; the money they paid was counterfeit, and so they cheated all they dealt with. But it is rather to be taken figuratively: justice was perverted by their princes, and religion and the word of God were sophisticated by their priests, and made to serve what turn they pleased. Dross may shine like silver, and the wine that is mixed with water may retain the colour of wine, but neither is worth any thing. Thus they retained a show and pretence of virtue and justice, but had no true sense of either.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible )​

And what is my point – Isaiah’s condemnation of adulterated wine reminds me that my witness matters: “No one is so insignificant as to be sure his – or her – example can do no harm.” (Daily Walk Bible)

 

[VictorBravo]

Thanks for the verse.

Seeing that this is a metaphor - it doesn't mean mixing water with wine is a bad thing. The point of the metaphor is how the city was not pure like the way wine is diluted when mixed with water. It has less value and less taste.

Anthony, I couldn't help but think of that old beer ad: "More taste, less filling."

I wouldn't say that the verse proves that diluting wine is a sin. Not at all. But I like the image nevertheless: purity is like undiluted wine. Or for that matter, untarnished gold, fair balances, proper boundaries, etc.

 

[bwsmith]

I was hoping you would admit that God's word speaks very favorably of alcohol alongside its admonitions to caution. However, it seems like you've managed to write another few paragraphs while continuing to dodge that issue, as you've already done repeatedly throughout the course of the thread.

Paring it down: the blessings of created things such as wine are not unmixed --given the nature of those who receive them.

God intended all His creation for good. Because of the Fall, there is only one unalloyed Gift - blessing -- and that is His grace that grants His own to see Christ Jesus Ruling and Resurrected.

 

[Davidius]

Even if the verse is speaking metaphorically and the city wasn't actually dealing with a watered-down wine problem, it is telling that a metaphor of watered-down wine is being used to display something as bad as "adulterated justice" or whatever else.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

ahurm...in best Baptist fashion...I bring a motion to call this thread "done!"

I'd also like to add it to the potential topics covered in the Debates area.


any seconds?

Motion carries.