Christians and art.

[Richard King]

I don't quite understand your question. I don't think anyone is confusing the picture of me with a picture of God. In creating that picture, I never thought that for a second.



Well I admit I didn't make a very clear point. This question reminds me when my oldest son went hyper charismatic or bi polar or something and began ripping the wall paper off his rental apt. because it had pictures of grape vines on it. He pointed out
Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

using this as a law he must obey he threw out his wife's valuable art books, he threw out pictures both painted and photographed. I was flashing back to that day when I saw a picture of you in the avatar and considered it a likeness of something that is on the earth.
That is where the argument I think you are making will take you.
Explain if I am wrong.

 

[etexas]

I don't quite understand your question. I don't think anyone is confusing the picture of me with a picture of God. In creating that picture, I never thought that for a second.



Well I admit I didn't make a very clear point. This question reminds me when my oldest son went hyper charismatic or bi polar or something and began ripping the wall paper off his rental apt. because it had pictures of grape vines on it. He pointed out
Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

using this as a law he must obey he threw out his wife's valuable art books, he threw out pictures both painted and photographed. I was flashing back to that day when I saw a picture of you in the avatar and considered it a likeness of something that is on the earth.
That is where the argument I think you are making will take you.
Explain if I am wrong.

 

[Civbert]

Explain if I am wrong.

Your son misunderstood what the Scripture was saying. He was right to obey God's Word, but he did not understand what was being commanded.

If God's Word said, you shall not wear any green shirts, then throw them all away. But God's word does not say that, and neither does it say we can not make any images. But we are not allowed to make images of God, or make any any object or image an object of worship as if it were God.

[bible] Exo 20:4-5[/bible]

 

[eternallifeinchrist]

Gracias

A side bar – PBS did a wonderful special, In Search of Shakespeare” and their was a companion book – it conjectured that given the perilous times in which Shakespeare wrote, his art was a well disguised attempt to debate the old faith with the new. (RC-ism vs. Protestantism)

Thank you so much! I hope I can find it!

 

[SRoper]

When a preacher describes Jesus with the women at the well in John 4, how does this pastor not sin if he tells the congregation to imagine Jesus talking to this women and pointing to the well, etc. He is appealing to people to make mental images of Jesus....2nd commandment violations.

I believe he does sin. It would be the same if he told the congregation to imagine David taking Betsheba into his bed. (I hope by that last sentence I didn't make any of you stumble who claim not to be able to read without picturing what is being described.)

Well I admit I didn't make a very clear point. This question reminds me when my oldest son went hyper charismatic or bi polar or something and began ripping the wall paper off his rental apt. because it had pictures of grape vines on it. He pointed out
Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

using this as a law he must obey he threw out his wife's valuable art books, he threw out pictures both painted and photographed. I was flashing back to that day when I saw a picture of you in the avatar and considered it a likeness of something that is on the earth.
That is where the argument I think you are making will take you.
Explain if I am wrong.

It appears that there are two parts here: (1) making, (2) bowing down and serving them.

Therefore if each is a separate command we cannot make anything at all. If they are considered together then we can make anything which is able to be made as long as we do not bow down and serve it.

Thus, Jesus Christ coming in the flesh can be pictured as such. Unless, you say that this is undue temptation...which I might agree.

This has already been addressed. The first part of the 2nd Commandment appears to prohibit the making of any image just as "thou shalt not kill" appears to condemn all killing. However, I believe that the indirect object "of God" is implied as God elsewhere commissions the creation of images of created things. Your "considering together" the two parts of the commandment actually makes the first part meaningless. What purpose does "thou shalt not make" serve if in your view the commandment only means "thou shalt not bow down"?

What do you mean by "we can make anything which is able to be made"?

 

[Civbert]

... - but this line of argumentation makes more sense than making the 2nd Commandment say something it does not from its plain reading..

Scripture provides a system of knowledge. These verses do tell us not to worship false idols, but it also says not to worship images. But we need to consider the plain reading and the rest of Scripture together and see if there are implications beyond the surface. And I believe there are implications, that one is not to make any images of God. This is true for the rest of the commands and how the rest of Scripture relates to them.

 

[Civbert]

... It is only natural to imagine the scenes of Scripture and for those who had seen Jesus to remember him. This imagining and remembering Jesus seems not to be sin. How do we remember Scripture stories...we remember them by the story line, not by remembering a word only....

Envy and lust are also natural - and we sin when we have these thoughts. It is not impossible to avoid lust, envy, or imagining images of Christ - but it is very difficult and none is perfect in righteousness. The standard is high, and it seems we are doomed to sin by nature, But this should humble us before a gracious God for clothes us in the righteousness of our Savior.

 

[Civbert]

...This fails the test of possibility and common sense. You simply cannot read the Scriptures without imagining in your minds eye the scenes that are unfolding.

Yes, it is possible. For some people have no "images" when they read Scripture.

 

[staythecourse]

Every image of God falls short so it's sin

That was the final point of Albert Mohler's sermon on the 2nd commandment.

He's not the end-all-be-all in my book by any means but I sure agree with him there.

Here's a memorable experience in my life regarding images.

I go to a church that has zippo symbols or images and I don't think anyone wears a cross. Point being, we try to take all 10 commandments seriously. There's more to it, such as me getting out of the SBC for conscious' sake - namely when I tithe to them I am helping propogate Arminian church plants in many cases among other pretty serious doctrinal issues.

However, I do take classes at Southern (but interest is fading fast). Last semester I took a class on Spiritual disciplines and (you have to be me here - it was like not turning on the television for a year and then seeing an HBO special accidentally, if you get my drift) the professor turns on the overhead to show a picture of Christ hanging on the cross. My reaction took me by surprise as I saw the ludicrousness (how do you spell that?) of the thing. It was a primitive painting, he looked like a martian, and it didn't evoke "the right feelings" but rather contempt at such an inadequate depiction of a man, let alone the Son of God. I said nothing and even participated in the class discussion, to my shame, and left feeling sick to my stomach.

I spoke with some plain old holy people at church and they said "Bryan you should have said something." So I did. I went to him the next class and dispite the tension explained to him it was wrong to depict Christ and it violated the 2nd commandment. He told me to "chill" and that was about it.

Until, he and I made our way to chapel which immediately followed class. Mohler gave the above sermon on the sin of creating any image of God. His infiniteness, or spirit, or "non-creationness" is so out of our comprehension that to limit Him on paper/canvass is instant falsehood and misrepresentation of Truth in all its/His aspects.

To this day I swear Mohler looked me right in the eye as he said that for some reason (I was "in the front row" as they say). Our eyes locked, if my name ain't Bryan Wiley, till he finished forcefully stressing that one point. He also shook my hand before the sermon which I still don't get. But point being, Mohler and I were on the same page, the prof heard the same message from the pres within 10 minutes after a rebuke, and I said, "Whoa, this may be holy ground. I'd better watch my p's and q's for a bit as I'm a little nervous about now."

I talked with the prof later and he said that Mohler and he had different views - Mohler gave the same sermon right after the Passion so he takes it pretty serious.

So, no crosses for this fella, no paintings, sculptures, or anything else that might trick me into creating an image. And my faith is strong without them. It seems to reduce passing on faith to words, which is safe and biblical.

 

[Bladestunner316]

I totally agree that to make an image of Christ violates the 2nd commandment. on top of it they cant even get it right unless Jesus was a 30 year old white male.

 

[staythecourse]

White, blue eyes and long hair, too

It must be flowing and to the shoulders.

 

[staythecourse]

I think you can get it at the seminary web.

http://www.sbts.edu/resources/Audio_Resources/Chapel_Messages/Fall_2006.aspx

It has a place where you can go to chapel sermons. He's on 10 right now. He's lax on the Sabbath but extremely firm about this one.

Good night.

 

[staythecourse]

Let me know what you think

Mohler's a good orator. Tell me how the sermon/argument sounds.

B