Christians who deny Scripture?

[MyCrows]

Looking for some help friends.

My wife and I are engaged in a pretty volatile discussion with her parents. Without elaborating too much on the back story, here are the basics.

They are professing believers, and demand to be treated as believers.

They refuse to associate, or even attend, any church.

They are very hostile to us proclaiming the gospel to other people. (They say we're judging them.)

Although they use scripture occasionally, (only ever a few verses out of context), they are very paranoid that the Bible can't be trusted. They say they trust what's in their heart. That the Lord is in their heart.

So my question is really two-fold.

To what degree can a Christian distrust scripture? For me, to deny scripture as truth is to deny Christ.

And what are your recommendations for proceeding in conversation? Do we continue to treat them as possessing believers? Or have they manifested their unbelief to the point that their profession is completely weightless?

I appreciate the responses.

 

[Taylor]

They deny the church.

They deny the proclamation of the gospel.

They deny Scripture.

They are not Christians, despite their claims to the contrary.

What to do with/about them? I really don’t know. Perhaps others can chime in, but I am uncomfortable giving you advice not knowing the details of your situation and relationship with them. Speak with your pastor and elders.

 

[Ed Walsh]

"Christians who deny Scripture" Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[jwithnell]

You love them, respect them, and continue living your life in obedience to your Savior. Politely change the subject if they want to force a discussion and disagree with you.

Your inlaws have the upper hand if they are looking to their own hearts rather than the Bible or church. How can you disagree when you have no way to objectively know what their heart is "telling" them? (This ranks up there with, "Well the Lord told me and I have a peace about it.")

Pray for a future opportunity to speak candidly. But for now try to live consistently and graciously.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

@MyCrows

You've not told us what the content of their Christian claim is. Thus we do not know positively exactly what they profess concerning the Christian faith.

The belief and behavior that you have described would apply, at best, to badly misguided and alienated Christians or to false professors.

None of us on this board know them and the negative description that you give makes it hard for us to conclude, assuming that your assessment and understanding of them are accurate, anything other than that your in-laws are in grave peril.

In any case, it is not up to you to "decide the real state of their heart." They are either quite spiritually confused or lost altogether and the remedy is the same in either case: faith and repentance.

What your in-laws need is what we all need: the whole counsel of God (the law and the gospel), clearly and convincingly set forth before them. If they will not hear this testimony, then, as I Peter 3:1-6 says in re: a different superior/inferior relationship in which the superior does not wish to hear the Word from the inferior, the inferior is simply to live before them in faithfulness.

So, you are to do what you can to live a godly life in all integrity before them and to continue to witness to the whole counsel of God through such a life. You may not throw pearls before swine (attempt to force your in-laws to hear what they don't want to hear). This requires much prayer, and perhaps fasting (as you are led), asking the Lord to open their hearts so that they both see the true hope that you have within and the emptiness of their rebellious ways.

May the Lord be pleased to grant you much patience and love with them and to open their eyes and hearts to want to hear and embrace the truth of the Word of God, especially as it sets forth our sin and Christ as the sole remedy for it.

Peace,
Alan

 

[MyCrows]

They deny the church.

They deny the proclamation of the gospel.

They deny Scripture.

They are not Christians, despite their claims to the contrary.

What to do with/about them? I really don’t know. Perhaps others can chime in, but I am uncomfortable giving you advice not knowing the details of your situation and relationship with them. Speak with your pastor and elders.

"Christians who deny Scripture" Isn't that an oxymoron?

You love them, respect them, and continue living your life in obedience to your Savior. Politely change the subject if they want to force a discussion and disagree with you.

Your inlaws have the upper hand if they are looking to their own hearts rather than the Bible or church. How can you disagree when you have no way to objectively know what their heart is "telling" them? (This ranks up there with, "Well the Lord told me and I have a peace about it.")

Pray for a future opportunity to speak candidly. But for now try to live consistently and graciously.

@MyCrows

You've not told us what the content of their Christian claim is. Thus we do not know positively exactly what they profess concerning the Christian faith.

The belief and behavior that you have described would apply, at best, to badly misguided and alienated Christians or to false professors.

None of us on this board know them and the negative description that you give makes it hard for us to conclude, assuming that your assessment and understanding of them are accurate, anything other than that your in-laws are in grave peril.

In any case, it is not up to you to "decide the real state of their heart." They are either quite spiritually confused or lost altogether and the remedy is the same in either case: faith and repentance.

What your in-laws need is what we all need: the whole counsel of God (the law and the gospel), clearly and convincingly set forth before them. If they will not hear this testimony, then, as I Peter 3:1-6 says in re: a different superior/inferior relationship in which the superior does not wish to hear the Word from the inferior, the inferior is simply to live before them in faithfulness.

So, you are to do what you can to live a godly life in all integrity before them and to continue to witness to the whole counsel of God through such a life. You may not throw pearls before swine (attempt to force your in-laws to hear what they don't want to hear). This requires much prayer, and perhaps fasting (as you are led), asking the Lord to open their hearts so that they both see the true hope that you have within and the emptiness of their rebellious ways.

May the Lord be pleased to grant you much patience and love with them and to open their eyes and hearts to want to hear and embrace the truth of the Word of God, especially as it sets forth our sin and Christ as the sole remedy for it.

Peace,
Alan

Thank you for your responses brothers.

This is a matter that I have sought counsel over among my elders, and the advice is similar to what I am hearing here. I don't disagree with you.

I have been reading a lot in 2 Timothy and Titus. I've been striving to rely on the Lord and his Spirit when I have opportunity to respond to them, and to respond firmly, yet with grace and gentleness.

As far as casting pearls before swine, I'm not actively seeking conversation with them to discuss my faith. But between them accusing me of being "the trooper on the white horse" (Rev. 6:2), them accusing me of abusing my wife, and their appearing at our house during my known work hours, (when I'm not home), these confrontations are almost forced.

As far as the remedy being the same..."faith and repentance"...

I couldn't agree more. For all of us. That is what my wife and I have been proclaiming to those around us. That is what led to this confrontation in the first place. They think we're doing the devil's work.

 

[ZackF]

Looking for some help friends.

My wife and I are engaged in a pretty volatile discussion with her parents. Without elaborating too much on the back story, here are the basics.

They are professing believers, and demand to be treated as believers.

They refuse to associate, or even attend, any church.

They are very hostile to us proclaiming the gospel to other people. (They say we're judging them.)

Although they use scripture occasionally, (only ever a few verses out of context), they are very paranoid that the Bible can't be trusted. They say they trust what's in their heart. That the Lord is in their heart.

So my question is really two-fold.

To what degree can a Christian distrust scripture? For me, to deny scripture as truth is to deny Christ.

And what are your recommendations for proceeding in conversation? Do we continue to treat them as possessing believers? Or have they manifested their unbelief to the point that their profession is completely weightless?

I appreciate the responses.

It isn't pleasant to hear what you are hearing from loved ones about the Scripture. My dad, though an unbeliever, has a similar truncated view of the Bible.

A couple of things to consider. Firstly, I'd suggest keeping in mind is what is right about your parents at this time. Where do their lives demonstrate God's goodness? This can eventually lead to conversations about why they hold such beliefs. Maybe it is a sense of justice or love for grandchildren (if they are in the picture). I don't know. That is something for prayer and discussion with your wife.

Secondly, maybe they are unbelievers. If so, what are you going to do? Confess their sins to them? Would this involve some kind of an announcement? I don't see how that would be helpful. They changed your wife's diapers. That matters when it comes to talking about serious things to parents. Take the long view, pray for opportunities and don't push too hard.

 

[RamistThomist]

Looking for some help friends.

My wife and I are engaged in a pretty volatile discussion with her parents. Without elaborating too much on the back story, here are the basics.

They are professing believers, and demand to be treated as believers.

They refuse to associate, or even attend, any church.

They are very hostile to us proclaiming the gospel to other people. (They say we're judging them.)

Although they use scripture occasionally, (only ever a few verses out of context), they are very paranoid that the Bible can't be trusted. They say they trust what's in their heart. That the Lord is in their heart.

So my question is really two-fold.

To what degree can a Christian distrust scripture? For me, to deny scripture as truth is to deny Christ.

And what are your recommendations for proceeding in conversation? Do we continue to treat them as possessing believers? Or have they manifested their unbelief to the point that their profession is completely weightless?

I appreciate the responses.

They don't sound like Christians, but...

How would your treating them be any different than how you normally treat them?

 

[Before]

They are professing believers, and demand to be treated as believers.

Strike one.

They refuse to associate, or even attend, any church.

Strike two.

They are very hostile to us proclaiming the gospel to other people. (They say we're judging them.)

Strike three. Yerr out!

 

[MyCrows]

They don't sound like Christians, but...

How would your treating them be any different than how you normally treat them?

Basically, they claim that whenever we disagree with them on spiritual issues, that we are judging them. They feel judged.

They insist that we believe her father is a "man of God", and not in a Timothy sense, but like a Benny Hinn sense. That he has a special connection with God that is higher.

So when we were sharing the gospel with family members, they consulted with him, he disagreed, and we went to the scripture.

 

[Ed Walsh]

How would your treating them be any different than how you normally treat them?

"How would your treating of them be any different than how you normally treat them?"

Of course, the honor and caring for them when needed and showing them the respect their position deserves would not change.

But while the contention between you two exists, there could be no ongoing Christian Fellowship. I would respectfully entertain their suggestions and advice when not contrary to scripture, but you're never going to be best buds when they oppose the Gospel.

A reminder from the Apostle:

2 Corinthians 6:14-16
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Before]

To what degree can a Christian distrust scripture? For me, to deny scripture as truth is to deny Christ.

And what are your recommendations for proceeding in conversation? Do we continue to treat them as possessing believers? Or have they manifested their unbelief to the point that their profession is completely weightless?

I appreciate the responses.

A Christian is one who has been born again (from above) of the Holy Spirit, the same Author of the very Scriptures they say 'can't be trusted'.

I would not have volatile arguments with them if possible, but rather treat them as unbelievers, being kind and throwing out a 'truth' when appropriate. Prayer goes a long ways in this type of situation as well.

 

[Ed Walsh]

A Christian is one who has been born again (from above) of the Holy Spirit, the same Author of the very Scriptures they say 'can't be trusted'.

I would not have volatile arguments with them if possible, but rather treat them as unbelievers, being kind and throwing out a 'truth' when appropriate. Prayer goes a long ways in this type of situation as well.

Here's a short five-minute piece from Pink.

A. W. Pink - It is Better to Stay at Home and Read God's Word​

 

[dhh712]

Looking for some help friends.

My wife and I are engaged in a pretty volatile discussion with her parents. Without elaborating too much on the back story, here are the basics.

They are professing believers, and demand to be treated as believers.

They refuse to associate, or even attend, any church.

They are very hostile to us proclaiming the gospel to other people. (They say we're judging them.)

Although they use scripture occasionally, (only ever a few verses out of context), they are very paranoid that the Bible can't be trusted. They say they trust what's in their heart. That the Lord is in their heart.

So my question is really two-fold.

To what degree can a Christian distrust scripture? For me, to deny scripture as truth is to deny Christ.

And what are your recommendations for proceeding in conversation? Do we continue to treat them as possessing believers? Or have they manifested their unbelief to the point that their profession is completely weightless?

I appreciate the responses.

Well, I'm sure you got some great answers, but the basic one that pops out to me is this: God must reveal Himself to us. We can get an idea of Him from creation, but you can't know Him from that--the creation has been twisted by sin and does not reveal God clearly. The only way we can receive a clear revelation of God is from Scripture. The clearest revelation of God, of course, is Jesus. But none of us has ever met him when he was in His incarnate form on earth so how else do we know Him but from God's word?

In my view. acknowledging the Bible as the infallible word of God is a fundamental of Christianity. For her parents who appear to deny this, then no I would not consider them to be believers. I would not continue to treat them as believers, but as those who still are outside of the Ark of Safety (show them love, kindness and respect as we do to all our neighbors, but do not fellowship with them or put your relationship with them above those of your church. Your church is your family, stronger than any blood ties. My own family I do not think hardly any are believers. I consider my brothers and sisters in Jesus to be closer to me than my blood relatives).

And of course, we cannot judge the state of anyone's heart--that place is the Lord's alone. We can only do the best with what we are given and shown to be the case by the words/actions of others; compassion, grace and forgiveness should always be shown to those who, as far as we can tell, appear to not be saved. Continue to pray for their conversion and that the light of the truth will somehow be made known to them.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Here's a short five-minute piece from Pink.

Proper separateness from sin is something that needs to be preached and practiced. Indeed.

However, I am not sure, Ed, that Pink is our best guide here.

We know where he took his own personal "separateness" vis-a-vis the visible church. Pink's call here to separateness can easily become an invitation to sit in judgment on and be dismissive of all our brothers and sisters in Christ who don't "measure up" according to our own sense of things. Those who do such always fail to see how they don't "measure up" in loving God and their neighbor and that none of us is anything to write home about.

I know several people from my distant church past influenced by Pink and who concluded that no institutional church measured up and they simply "stayed home and read their Bible." That is not "better" than being part of a less-than-perfect visible church (no instantiation of the visible church is all that it should be).

Proper separateness from sin? Yes. Rejection of the visible church because it falls short in various ways (as do we all)? No.

Peace,
Alan

 

[RamistThomist]

I suppose when I asked how this would change your interaction with them, I meant something like, "How often do you see them where this is an issue?" Half of my family is Roman Catholic (Louisiana and all). We used to really go at it. We don't anymore, though "religious topics" do sometimes arise.

Do you debate theology with them every time you see them? Maybe that isn't the best tact.

 

[Before]

Here's a short five-minute piece from Pink.

A. W. Pink - It is Better to Stay at Home and Read God's Word​

Not sure that visitations by inlaws arise to the level of being 'unequally yoked'. I would have understood that as business partnerships, marriage or even questionable Church memberships.

 

[MyCrows]

I suppose when I asked how this would change your interaction with them, I meant something like, "How often do you see them where this is an issue?" Half of my family is Roman Catholic (Louisiana and all). We used to really go at it. We don't anymore, though "religious topics" do sometimes arise.

Do you debate theology with them every time you see them? Maybe that isn't the best tact.

There is no contact on my part. There used to be tension, because they knew we were members of a church, and there was a large discussion that came out of it one night.

There was a break down, and they only talked to me a few times since.

The last bit of communication I had was this, via text.

(Father-in-law) : Don't message me or my wife I think you're a bit of a whack job and I hope one day you're within Arms Reach

(Me) : That's fine, but it doesn't change my offer. I will only ask that you guys pay the same respect to her.

(Father-in-law) : Listen Mike I asked you not to respond don't text me I see you as the root problem the evil the trooper on the White Horse

.........

After thats it's just been them showing up and trying to talk to my wife when I'm gone.

 

[JimmyH]

@MyCrows I've posted this quoted text by MLJ in past threads. Perhaps sharing it with your Father in Law might bear fruit.


In his introduction to "Studies In The Sermon On The Mount", the Reverend Dr. D.Martyn Lloyd-Jones says,

"There is nothing more important in the Christian life than the way in which we approach the Bible and the way in which we read it. It is our textbook, it is our only source, it is our only authority. We know nothing about God and about the Christian life in a true sense apart from the Bible. We can draw various deductions from nature (and possibly from various mystical experiences) by which we can arrive at a belief in a supreme Creator. But I think it is agreed by most Christians and it has been traditional throughout the long history of the Church that we have no authority save this Book. We cannot rely solely upon subjective experiences because there are evil spirits as well as good spirits' there are counterfeit experiences. Here, in the Bible is our sole authority."

 

[ZackF]

There is no contact on my part. There used to be tension, because they knew we were members of a church, and there was a large discussion that came out of it one night.

There was a break down, and they only talked to me a few times since.

The last bit of communication I had was this, via text.

(Father-in-law) : Don't message me or my wife I think you're a bit of a whack job and I hope one day you're within Arms Reach

(Me) : That's fine, but it doesn't change my offer. I will only ask that you guys pay the same respect to her.

(Father-in-law) : Listen Mike I asked you not to respond don't text me I see you as the root problem the evil the trooper on the White Horse

.........

After thats it's just been them showing up and trying to talk to my wife when I'm gone.

This is sad and illuminating. There is a lot going on here. I hope your church’s leaders are aware of the situation and are coming along side of you both.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Proper separateness from sin is something that needs to be preached and practiced. Indeed.

However, I am not sure, Ed, that Pink is our best guide here.

We know where he took his own personal "separateness" vis-a-vis the visible church. Pink's call here to separateness can easily become an invitation to sit in judgment on and be dismissive of all our brothers and sisters in Christ who don't "measure up" according to our own sense of things. Those who do such always fail to see how they don't "measure up" in loving God and their neighbor and that none of us is anything to write home about.

I know several people from my distant church past influenced by Pink and who concluded that no institutional church measured up and they simply "stayed home and read their Bible." That is not "better" than being part of a less-than-perfect visible church (no instantiation of the visible church is all that it should be).

Proper separateness from sin? Yes. Rejection of the visible church because it falls short in various ways (as do we all)? No.

Peace,
Alan

Indeed, Alan. In fact, I warn impressionable people to avoid reading A. W. Pink for this very reason. His ecclesiology was spiritually disastrous and has done untold damage to those who have been led astry by him on this point.

 

[RamistThomist]

There is no contact on my part. There used to be tension, because they knew we were members of a church, and there was a large discussion that came out of it one night.

There was a break down, and they only talked to me a few times since.

The last bit of communication I had was this, via text.

(Father-in-law) : Don't message me or my wife I think you're a bit of a whack job and I hope one day you're within Arms Reach

(Me) : That's fine, but it doesn't change my offer. I will only ask that you guys pay the same respect to her.

(Father-in-law) : Listen Mike I asked you not to respond don't text me I see you as the root problem the evil the trooper on the White Horse

.........

After thats it's just been them showing up and trying to talk to my wife when I'm gone.

In that case it's fairly cut and dry. There is no communication and not much more you can do. The sassy part of me wants to ask him, given his denial of Scripture, why he thinks the Rider on the White Horse part is reliable.

 

[C4MERON]

There is no contact on my part. There used to be tension, because they knew we were members of a church, and there was a large discussion that came out of it one night.

There was a break down, and they only talked to me a few times since.

The last bit of communication I had was this, via text.

(Father-in-law) : Don't message me or my wife I think you're a bit of a whack job and I hope one day you're within Arms Reach

(Me) : That's fine, but it doesn't change my offer. I will only ask that you guys pay the same respect to her.

(Father-in-law) : Listen Mike I asked you not to respond don't text me I see you as the root problem the evil the trooper on the White Horse

.........

After thats it's just been them showing up and trying to talk to my wife when I'm gone.

Thats…very sad. Im sorry thats where things seem to be at. Also, that comment regarding being within ‘Arms Reach’..sounds a bit threatening to me?
Much prayer is needed over this situation. Be mindful, your priority is to love and lead your wife and resist any temptation to speak negatively of her parents.

 

[Taylor]

After thats it's just been them showing up and trying to talk to my wife when I'm gone.

Call the police and get them on trespassing. Not out of vengeance, of course, but they can’t have their cake and eat it, too, especially when the father-in-law is physically threatening you.

 

[RamistThomist]

Like Taylor said, have him trespassed. He's not playing by his own rules.

 

[MyCrows]

Well, to be fair he's sent his wife over the past few times, and he's stayed away.

Law enforcement is probably only going to be called if I feel there is an active immediate threat.

 

[Taylor]

Well, to be fair he's sent his wife over the past few times, and he's stayed away.

Law enforcement is probably only going to be called if I feel there is an active immediate threat.

That’s fair and understandable. I was more thinking that they need to understand that their daughter is no longer under her father’s headship. She’s your wife, and they need to respect that, regardless of what they think of you. They cannot just come into your domain anytime they wish, especially if they are trying to undermine your authority in your own home.