Christmas: Christian or Pagan?

[Romans922]

Here is audio for what seems to be a Christian Education class: There are 7 parts to a study on Christmas: Christian or Pagan???

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7

I believe it to be pagan as this man, however I know many of you perhaps will say no it was never pagan...or yes it was pagan but we can reclaim it...or this is my christian freedom so I can celebrate whatever I desire...


Thoughts?

 

[John Bunyan]

Christ-mas

Doesn't matter where it came from or which ancient tradition was converted to become Christmas, for what is celebrated in Christmas is nothing less than the Incarnation of the Word, the Word Wich was with God and Wich was God since the beggining.

So if you are praising God and remembering the birth of Christ, doesn't matter in wich day of the year (be in the traditional month of December or in the more historically probable month of April), you are celebrating nothing evil, but showing love and gratitude towards God.

It is, as St. Paul would say, a matter of conscience. The modern conscience, and the christian conscience during most of History is that, during Christmas, we celebrate the Incarnation.

So, even though we are not obliged by the Bible to celebrate Christmas (as opposed to Easter), there's nothing wrong with it and it is universally recognized as a Christam practice that helps in the unity of the Church - for all large denominations celebrate Christmas.

Let's not be caught on the trap of saying "Such and such came from such and such pagan practice, therefore, let's shun it", lest act like Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[BobVigneault]

Christmas is a manufactured package of Christian and pagan images and rituals that was used as a tool to trivialize and absorb pagan religions into the Church. Marketing the church and trying to appear relevant to culture is not a technique invented by Joel Osteen, it goes back nearly two thousand years.

Today it is a church tradition rooted in tradition. Jesus is not the reason for the season because Biblically, there is no season - it's an arbitrary choice on the calendar to emphasize the incarnation for some (though Scripture never directs us to do so) and a celebration of greed, avarice and gluttony for most. It also creates an arbitrary and competing "holy day" that competes with and (this year) against the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the one day that we actually ARE commanded to keep holy and show special deference for. This year, the Lord's Day will be completely eclipsed by Christmas - some churches are even cancelling worship so that the congregants can observe their tradition.

 

[MLCOPE2]

So, even though we are not obliged by the Bible to celebrate Christmas (as opposed to Easter)

I'm unfamiliar with such an obligation. Where does scripture say we are to celebrate the resurrection on a special day? The only Christian holiday that I am familiar with is the Holy Sabbath (even though Thanksgiving could have a good case made for it).

lest act like Jehovah's Witnesses.

The phrase, "Even a stopped watch is right twice a day", comes to mind here. By that, I mean that even though they have taken there position to its extreme, it doesn't follow that there is no merit to it. I'm not calling for the abolition of all holidays, I just disagree with the notion that "Christmas" and "Easter" are inherently christian, or biblical for that matter, and binding on all those who claim the name of Christ. Christian liberty hasn't given us the freedom to do those things, it has given us freedom from having to do them.

 

[Somerset]

Christ mass sums it up for me.

 

[Jack K]

Christmas should be evaluated for what it is TODAY, not how it came to be but no longer is for anybody. Using that criteria, Christmas is:

1. Christian for many. It may in some ways be a bad application of Christianity, but it is Christian.

2. Secular for others. They prefer to remove most if not all religious significance from the day, but still like to celebrate it.

3. Pagan for very, very few. Regardless of the day's origins, this just isn't in the picture anymore.

 

[Moireach]

So, even though we are not obliged by the Bible to celebrate Christmas (as opposed to Easter)

Oh dear

 

[seajayrice]

Like the sun rises from the east, so do the yuletide greetings usher in another year.
View attachment 2499

 

[Tripel]

I'm not concerned with what may or may not be pagan roots. There's nothing pagan about the Christmas that I celebrate today.

 

[Moireach]

I'm not concerned with what may or may not be pagan roots. There's nothing pagan about the Christmas that I celebrate today.

The pagan roots part is only the nail in the coffin, it's not the primary reason not to celebrate it at all.

 

[mvdm]

This year, the Lord's Day will be completely eclipsed by Christmas - some churches are even cancelling worship so that the congregants can observe their tradition.

This is happening in my hometown. Quite revealing that despite the lip service paid to "Christmas is about Jesus", churches would cancel worship of our ascended Lord in favor of exchanging wrapped merchandise in our homes.

 

[TimV]

Christ mass sums it up for me.

The word origin doesn't mean Christ Mass any more that Thursday means Thor's day. Otherwise it'd be sinful for English speakers and fine for Spanish or Chinese etc.... speakers who call it the birth of Christ.

 

[Rev. Todd Ruddell]

In addition to Bawb's excellent comments above, note Thomas Boston:

"This command puts a peculiar honour on the Sabbath above all other days: Remember the Sabbath-day, &c. But when men make holidays of their own to be kept holy, the day appointed of God is spoiled of its peculiar honour, and there is no peculiar honour left to it, Ezek. 43:8. Yea, in practice they go before it; for men’s holidays, where they are regarded, are more regarded than God’s day."

It is also instructive to remember that co-opting the practices of pagan worship to "Christianize" them is what Aaron and the children of Israel were condemned for at the base of Sinai by seeking to worship Yahveh by means of a golden calf, a form of worship they knew from Egyptian practice. (Exodus 32.5)

 

[J. Dean]

According to R.C. Sproul, the original celebration of Christ's birth was January 6th, not Dec. 25th.

I would say Christmas is a Christian holiday that unfortunately has been de-Christianized by the world. That it is abused and distorted is wrong, but to celebrate the Incarnation of Jesus Christ for the salvation of our sins is not wrong.

Let's always remember Romans 14:5 in this conversation, lest we slip into legalism on the one hand or antinomianism on the other.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Romans 14:5 may be one of the most abused verses in Scripture. The verse is not a theological get out of jail free card. Far too often I see it used to justify everything anyone wants to do in worship, ethics, etc...

Paul in no way meant for Romans 14:5 to be used to justify the Normative Principle of Worship that most of the Reformed world has adopted instead of the Biblical and orthodox Reformed Regulative Principle. Deuteronomy 12:32 should be the starting point for any discussion of worship on a "Puritan" Board.

The January 6 date is in reference the old Julian calendar still used by the Eastern churches and by the way for all the great things R.C. has done he is not a place to go for Reformed Worship. He is an open violator of the 2nd Commandment.

 

[TimV]

The law was a school master. In other words, it taught people how to live. One day in seven as a rest day is necessary for the mental and physical health of people. That's just the way we're made. And the same with the other Sabbaths. Just because they've been fulfilled, like the weekly Sabbath, doesn't mean that they are some how stupid. There's nothing different about our minds and bodies now. We need occasional days off, and the fact that the other Sabbaths aren't required for Christians doesn't mean that we can't keep them. Paul kept Pentecost, and it had nothing to do with a pagan army not yet having destroyed a pagan city

I wish we had the exact days off the church was formerly (but no longer) commanded to keep. Until then, I'll go with the flow and be thankful that at least some, like Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter have retained at least SOME of their liturgical trappings.

 

[J. Dean]

Romans 14:5 may be one of the most abused verses in Scripture. The verse is not a theological get out of jail free card. Far too often I see it used to justify everything anyone wants to do in worship, ethics, etc...

Paul in no way meant for Romans 14:5 to be used to justify the Normative Principle of Worship that most of the Reformed world has adopted instead of the Biblical and orthodox Reformed Regulative Principle. Deuteronomy 12:32 should be the starting point for any discussion of worship on a "Puritan" Board.

The January 6 date is in reference the old Julian calendar still used by the Eastern churches and by the way for all the great things R.C. has done he is not a place to go for Reformed Worship. He is an open violator of the 2nd Commandment.

What I say here, I say without malice or intent to provoke, just to be clear.

I would kindly and respectfully point out that Romans 14:5 is just as much the Word of God as Deut 12:32. If you have a better explanation for Romans 14:5, I'm willing to listen.

The point of Romans 14:5 is that there is freedom with regard to Christianity in certain matters. That a person celebrates Christmas does not mean that he/she is in violation of RPW. If a man chooses to set aside a day and celebrate the historical truth that the Son of God was made incarnate and came to earth as an emphasized yearly reminder, I fail to see how that violates any principle of worship, either regulative or normative. By the same token, a person who does NOT choose to do has the freedom to decline from any such practice. It's like the principle of eating meat: neither man is the better or the worse for it.

This is not about violating what is clearly stated in Scripture. Obviously Rom. 14:5 is not a carte blanche license for "anything goes;" I agree completely that such a view is outside of Scriptural boundaries. But let's not ignore the plain sense of the text either. There IS a degree of variance allowed within the practice of the Christian faith on some matters. To say otherwise is to call Paul a liar with regard to this passage. Because somebody does not do things the way you or I do them does not make them a pagan, provided they do not counter the Scriptures themselves.

To be honest, if we wanted to go ultra-strict, we could go the route of the Jehovah's Witnesses and do away with Holidays altogether. I could argue that the Fourth of July is a potentially dangerous holiday because it could turn patriotism into an idol. I could say that Valentine's Day is bad because it has the potential to exalt human love over God's love. And on and on we go. There's potential for ANYTHING to be abused.

It is interesting to note that the Jews celebrate the festival of Hannukah, a celebration which was most certainly kept in Jesus' time, and one not commanded by the Old Testament Scriptures. Yet there is no mention of Jesus (or the apostles for that matter) condemning the practice of the festival of lights despite its prominence at that time. Surely, if Jesus had a problem with it, He would have condemned it plainly, wouldn't He?

Disagreement on this issue is inevitable. However, that a man celebrates Christmas, or does not celebrate Christmas, so long as he does not violate the Word of God in the process, does not make him an unbeliever. I worry that in the process of this discussion we run the risk of becoming Pharisees who strain at gnats and swallow camels, or Antinomians who follow an "anything goes" course and eventually end up with something that resembles Christianity in name only. We as Christians need to make sure that we walk in the right way and not fall into either extreme.

 

[John Bunyan]

It is interesting to note that the Jews celebrate the festival of Hannukah, a celebration which was most certainly kept in Jesus' time, and one not commanded by the Old Testament Scriptures. Yet there is no mention of Jesus (or the apostles for that matter) condemning the practice of the festival of lights despite its prominence at that time. Surely, if Jesus had a problem with it, He would have condemned it plainly, wouldn't He?

John 10:22-23
"Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the Temple, in Solomon's porch"

Indeed, and if we take a brief look at the passage above, we can see the only biblical reference to a well-known winter holiday that Jesus celebrated, also know as Hanukkah.

 

[Romans922]

I always liked this Scripture, Jeremiah 10, "Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move."

 

[Tripel]

I always liked this Scripture, Jeremiah 10, "Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move."

That passage could just as easily be misused to condemn anything that is cultural.

 

[Bethel]

It is interesting to note that the Jews celebrate the festival of Hannukah, a celebration which was most certainly kept in Jesus' time, and one not commanded by the Old Testament Scriptures. Yet there is no mention of Jesus (or the apostles for that matter) condemning the practice of the festival of lights despite its prominence at that time. Surely, if Jesus had a problem with it, He would have condemned it plainly, wouldn't He?

John 10:22-23
"Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the Temple, in Solomon's porch"

Indeed, and if we take a brief look at the passage above, we can see the only biblical reference to a well-known winter holiday that Jesus celebrated, also know as Hanukkah.

Jesus did condemn the traditions of men:

Matthew 15

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.​

In addition, the John 10 passage you quoted doesn't prove that Jesus celebrated the Feast of the Dedication. Verses 22 & 23 give you the setting, but Jesus is not there to celebrate; he's there to tell the Jews that He is God (verse 30).

 

[cajunhillbilly53]

My church is having Christmas Eve services AND Sunday services.

 

[Tim]

Just do what God commands; it is enough for your spiritual good. Nothing extra is added by adding traditions under supposed liberty.

 

[Philip]

I will be at church on Dec. 25---I am always blessed when Christmas falls on a Lord's Day.

 

[Myshkin]

In the interest of being fair and balanced, not for those already convinced of their position, but for those who may only hear one side of what is "truly Reformed".

From an anti-christmas point of view:

Why do Presbyterian obs holy days

From a pro-Evangelical Feast Days point of view:

http://www.oceansideurc.org/ - Pilgrims & Parish (Danny Hyde) - - Not Holy But Helpful: Thoughts on the Church*Calendar

http://www.oceansideurc.org/ - Pilgrims & Parish (Danny Hyde) - - About Advent (From the*Archives)


From a Reformed confession:

Second Helvetic (Swiss) Confession
CHAPTER XXIV
Of Holy Days, Fasts and the Choice of Foods

THE FESTIVALS OF Christ AND THE SAINTS. Moreover, if in Christian liberty the churches religiously celebrate the memory of the Lord's nativity, circumcision, passion, resurrection, and of his ascension into heaven, and the sending of the Holy Spirit upon his disciples, we approve of it highly. But we do not approve of feasts instituted for men and for saints. Holy days have to do with the first Table of the Law and belong to God alone. Finally, holy days which have been instituted for the saints and which we have abolished, have much that is absurd and useless, and are not to be tolerated. In the meantime, we confess that the remembrance of saints, at a suitable time and place, is to be profitably commended to the people in sermons, and the holy examples of the saints set forth to be imitated by all.

 

[JBaldwin]

I've been looking into this topic seriously for the first time, and what bothers me the most about the pagan, non-christian parts of the Christmas celebration are the origins of the pagan worship. I was somewhat surprised to learn that a large portion of the traditions of Christmas are nothing but reworked Canaanite pagan practices which have their origins in Babylon. I find this disturbing. While I feel there is nothing wrong with celebrating the birth of Christ and making the season totally Christ-centered, I am having trouble seeing the difference between "going through the motions" of pagan ritual and actually performing it. God was very hard on Israel taking on the ways of the Canaanites.

Just my

 

[Unoriginalname]

The only good thing about this time of year is that egg nog is sold and books are on sale

 

[Skyler]

The only good thing about this time of year is that egg nog is sold and books are on sale

Let's not forget chocolate on the 26th.

Christmas is a pagan invention, America is a pagan nation, and I myself was born under the wrath of God, but I reserve the right to celebrate my birthday, Independence Day, and Christmas for the glory of God in a manner pleasing to Him.

 

[dudley]

Christmas is a manufactured package of Christian and pagan images and rituals that was used as a tool to trivialize and absorb pagan religions into the Church. Marketing the church and trying to appear relevant to culture is not a technique invented by Joel Osteen, it goes back nearly two thousand years.

Today it is a church tradition rooted in tradition. Jesus is not the reason for the season because Biblically, there is no season - it's an arbitrary choice on the calendar to emphasize the incarnation for some (though Scripture never directs us to do so) and a celebration of greed, avarice and gluttony for most. It also creates an arbitrary and competing "holy day" that competes with and (this year) against the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the one day that we actually ARE commanded to keep holy and show special deference for. This year, the Lord's Day will be completely eclipsed by Christmas - some churches are even cancelling worship so that the congregants can observe their tradition.

I agree with our brother Bob, (Christ mass) Christmas reeks of Roman Catholicism which I have renounced completely since leaving the church of the popes and becoming a Protestant.
I completely agree with Bob when he said : “Christmas is a manufactured package of Christian and pagan images and rituals that was used as a tool to trivialize and absorb pagan religions into the Church.” The truth is that during December , the winter solstice the pagan Romans celebrated the Feat of Saturnalia, the God Saturn,. It was know also as the east of lights.
The papist church after Constantine put Christ’s birth at this time to win over the pagan tribes to the pope. The incarnation is probably better celebrated in the spring. However like so much of what Rome still does today she makes traditions not at all based on scripture. She plays into the hands of Satan himself who would like to undermine the truth of salvation and The Easter message of the Resurrection; which is and should be the major holyday for all who call themselves Christian. Too many Christmas is more important than Easter.
The papacy eventually tried to appease the pagan barbarians. While Roman Catholic Christianity gave order to the faithful, it might have been at great cost to believers. It has been suggested that its corrupt system of falsehood and idolatry identifies it as a masterpiece of Satan, rather than the kingdom of the Son of God. In fact, Cardinal Manning speaks of the secretive union of Christianity and Pagan religion that the Roman Empire made with the "barbarian hordes", which incorporated the pagan rites with Christianity in a truce; the barbarians kept their pagan religious practices in exchange for relinquishing their power to the Pope.

This process of assimilation is characteristic of Roman Catholicism throughout the centuries. Within Roman Catholicism, there is no policy designed to eradicate such heathen practices; rather, the general practice is to foster assimilation by replacing pagan superstitions with similar ecclesiastical institutions.

Along with Rome's direct infusion of paganism, the papal church has added some novelties of its own. The principal perversion is the celebration of the Mass. Since the middle ages, the concept of transubstantiation has been an integral part of Popish worship. Roman Catholics contend that the communion elements are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ, in order to offer a re -sacrifice of Christ Â* a sacrifice which is said to possess propitiatory merits. The Mass is a blasphemous assault upon the finality and perfection of Christ's sacrifice on the cross of Calvary (Cf. Heb. 9:12, 24-26; 10:10-14).
The Mass is the preeminent feature of Christmas celebration. "In the Roman Catholic Church three masses are usually said to symbolize the birth of Christ eternally in the bosom of the Father, from the womb of Mary and mystically in the soul of the faithful." The concept of the Mass is embedded in the English term Christmas, its etymology being traced to the Old English words Christes maesse, meaning "the mass or festival of Christ."

What is even worse the roman catholic church worships the bread of the Lords Supper in a golden idolatrous monstrance. They make a wafer of bread into the Son of God.

Even the Lords supper is really PAGAN SUN WORSHIP AND in CATHOLICISM
THE MONSTRANCE and the WAFER GOD perverts the sacrament of the Lords supper. There mass denies the one time sacrifice of Christ on Calvary for all who place their faith in him alone. Thus the Christmas mass is a total blasphemy .

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: ...
Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
Note that the commandment of God forbids making and bowing down to images. Among pagans, perhaps the most common form of idolatry is sun worship, and the above prohibition would clearly exclude bowing down before images of the sun or moon (things in the heaven above). But then God gets even more explicit:
Deu 17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
Deu 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
Deu 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
Deu 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Jer 8:1 At that time, saith the LORD, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
Jer 8:2 And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.
Jer 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.
With that in mind, lets look at solar and lunar images directly associated with the Catholic Mass.The Monstrance is used to display a round wafer of bread, called the host, which is used in what is called the Mass, Lord's Supper, Communion or Eucharistic meal. The Catholic believes this wafer of bread turns into the actual body of Christ when consecrated during the Mass.
The Roman Catholic Church even admits the Monstrance to be a sunburst:
"During the baroque period, it took on a rayed form of a sun-monstrance with a circular window surrounded by a silver or gold frame with rays."

In case you think the word "worship" of the wafer God in Catholicism is an exaggeration on my part, please note this paragraph from the new Vatican Catechism of the Catholic Church: (Italics present in the original text)
1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated host with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."

Thus because of all its pagan and papal associations, Christmas met strong objections during and after the Protestant Reformation. This opposition was especially forceful among Presbyterians.

The Register of Ministers in Geneva (1546) records a list of "faults which contravene the Reformation." Among the directives regarding "Superstitions" is the following: "Those who observe Romish festivals or fasts shall only be reprimanded, unless they remain obstinately rebellious. "
On Sunday, 16 November 1550, an edict was issued concerning holidays; it was a decree "respecting the abrogation of all festivals, with the exception of Sundays, which God had ordained. "This ban on festival days (including Christmas) caused an uproar in certain quarters, and Calvin was reproached as the instigator of the action.

It seems that Calvin was initially uneasy about the edict to ban the festivals, because he feared that the "sudden change" might provoke tumult which could impede the course of the Reformation. Nevertheless, in the same letter to Haller, Calvin says, "Although I have neither been the mover nor instigator to it, yet, since it has so happened, I am not sorry for it."

I will go to services on Christmas day because it is the Lords day.I will give a small gift to each of my grandchildren and go to dinner with my son and hisfamily and in laws to celebrate the incarnation. But i keep my Christmas low keyed, because I am a Reformed Protestant and no longer a Roman catholic.

 

[Filipe Luiz C. Machado]

The Scriptures never told us to celebrate o Christ birthday. Oh yes, she (I can use "she" for the Scriptures or is correct use "it"?) also never told us to celebrate our birthday, but this are different thinks. I also support the other comments that this "party" is from a pagan culture and be translated to the christians, because the "church" (romanism) wanted to be like the world and not different of the world. But I think that we don't need "rock out" everyone because it, but - in love - is necessary teach each one about the necessity to look only to the Scriptures and not to the world's commandments.