church discipline & children

Status
Not open for further replies.

Houston E.

Puritan Board Freshman
(This thread might need to be moved, but wanted paedos only to answer at this point)

Is there an approximate age or situation at which a baptized child (visible church member) would come under the discipline of the church for not becoming a communicant member?

Thanks
 
Robert Dabney deals with this in his systematic theology.

I suppose discipline would consist of counselling and stern advice by the kirk session regarding the privileges, promises and responsibilities of the Covenant.

I suppose there could be no church sanctions because children are not communicant members until they profess faith.

For babies baptism is an engagement to be the Lord's. Those that do not follow it up with going to the Lord's Table are effectively saying that they do not want to remain in/are not continuing in the covenant.

They are saying that they have not come to love the Lord of the Covenant and do not want to be married to Him in the Lord's Supper - at least for the time being.
 
A man comes to your church. He comes week in and week out. He seems to listen attentively to the sermons. He tries to sing the songs. He asks serious questions occasionally of the pastor. He seems puzzled often, happy occasionally, but committed definitely.

Yet he cannot become a member, because he clearly does not understand the faith, or he does not want to become a member for reasons unstated, but he does not have the right kind of commitment.

His status cannot change unless he changes--for the better.


The covenant-child is not much different. Except, he is a member of his church. He is not a communicant member, and he also has no voice in church affairs.

But he comes faithfully, obediently to church with his parents. He even comes on him own when he gets his own apartment, and drives his own car. He sits, he listens with seeming attention, he asks serious questions about the faith sometimes.

And yet, he seems unwilling or able to really grasp the faith. He does not live in open sin. He attends upon the means of grace that are common and available to him. Who are we to challenge his personal assessment of his readiness? How do we know, but that this long, drawn-out process is still God calling, and not letting him go?

If all of us need the gospel every week, if all of us are only held in God's grip by grace, who are we to demand that a man speak thus to please our sensibilities? What shall we discipline him for?

But this one's status shouldn't change either, unless he changes--for better or worse.



There are two ways of understanding the church-population.
1) a perfect society of imperfect people.
2) an imperfect society of perfect people.

#1 is a Presbyterian understanding. The "perfect" society is the ideal church, that only exists ideally in the invisible election. Sinners, whose election is in doubt (often even to themselves) are proper members of this society. These are people who just need Jesus and the gospel today, just as much as yesterday. Maybe a little more or less tomorrow than today. At least that's how it feels.

#2 is a non-Presbyterian understanding. The imperfect society is the church that we can see. It's on the earth, so naturally it's imperfect. However, it is made up of the elect, or at least ones that we're fairly sure are elect. They say they believe. They give good answers. They have been observed for a while living a decent life, behaving like truly sanctified folks. It's probably safe to let them be members.
 
Thanks Bruce.

But after a time could it not be said as Richard quoted Dabney above that they are demonstrating "they do not want to continue in the covenant"? The focus is not the sign, but what it is to signify, right?
I guess I'm asking is there a point when their baptism is looked upon by the church as a curse rather than a blessing?

You seem to imply that he would come under discipline if he were in open sin...
Is not the seeming rejection of the reality of the covenant sign that has been placed upon him sin?
 
Did he refuse to take a communicant's class? Or is he just not sure he's a believer? Discipline can include counseling, but has the person given any indication that he "doesn't want to be in the covenant." How? by fearing to confess what he isn't sure of?

The truth is, we are all subjects of church discipline every single day. It shows itself in various ways. But one thing no church discipline can do: create a heart change apart from the Holy Spirit. We discipline behavior.

If you have a 5 year old who's scared of heights, do you set him on top of a step ladder? I guess not. I also guess discipline for an 18 year old in such a case would look a little different, whatever you decided to do. But would you ever take even your 32 yr old son up in an airplane and threaten to throw him out without a parachute if he doesn't jump voluntarily with one on?!?

Can you show me how "seeming rejection" equates to "plain rejection"? Sounds like totally different categories to me...
 
If you have a 5 year old who's scared of heights, do you set him on top of a step ladder?

So that's why I'm STILL scared of heights!! :lol:

Can you show me how "seeming rejection" equates to "plain rejection"? Sounds like totally different categories to me...

Ok, bad choice of words...let's go with "plain rejection" for 200 Alex... ;)

Is the "plain rejection" of the covenant sign placed upon him sin, and if so, would he be placed under discipline?
(let's say that he repeatedly refuses to take the communicant class)
 
Here's the vows for membership in the PCA:

1. Do you acknowledge yourselves to be sinners in the sight of
God, justly deserving His displeasure, and without hope save
in His sovereign mercy?

2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God,
and Savior of sinners, and do you receive and rest upon Him
alone for salvation as He is offered in the Gospel?

3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon
the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as
becomes the followers of Christ?

4. Do you promise to support the Church in its worship and
work to the best of your ability?

5. Do you submit yourselves to the government and discipline
of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace?
 
Trey,
I think that there typically are ways to confront people, by degrees, that will expose their attitudes. Expose sin, and something will happen, either an act of contrition or of further rebellion, and then you deal with it. Send that young man/woman to a class with others. Send him to see the pastor once a week, for one-on-one gospel counseling and catechism. Something is going to give.

Do we ever "give up" on discipline? No. That's what the rebellious toddler at your dining room table hopes. That you'll get tired before he does, and just put up with his nonsense. If you love him, you won't give up on him.

And if a covenant child won't respond to discipline, he will eventually get into overt sin, and could well-be put to the last measure of discipline (publicly expelled) as a last-ditch measure to reclaim him.

One of the problems within the question is that it is assuming something that we seldom--if ever--encounter. Namely, that in the due use of ordinary means, God won't grace and bless his work in the hearts of people sitting under bible-preaching, gospel-teaching ministry.

Can someone really hear the Word hammered at them--the law and the gospel--for weeks, months, decades, and have nothing to show for it? Is he "one in a million"? Can a person be so inert, and yet so disciplined as to be a constant attender, toes stepped on every single week, and they never react? He always obeys? She has no vices she nurses in secret? What do we believe about how God tells us he works?

Honestly, a church apparently with ONE of these people probably has a HUNDRED. And the problem likely isn't that they have been given hard-hitting preaching, but that they haven't. And then, there's no discipline anyway.

If a boy is hard-hearted, he won't ordinarily sit there for the condemnation of the law. If a girl is rebellious, she will not be dutifully in church week by week--and nothing changes for better or worse in her life.

I'm sure there could be exceptional exceptions to how this looks, but the "what-if" has got to be based on a standard situation (parents and church following the Standard), and God's promises. That is, if we are hoping to have the scenario give feedback on our policies and procedures.
 
I think if he starts acting (living) as an unbeliever or claiming to be an unbeliever, that the church should call him back to his baptism. But otherwise, I think that the parents of the child should be the most involved, and until they ask for help (or admit help is needed if questioned by an elder--which I think is a totally appropriate question) then the parents should mainly assess the situation.
 
I would like to say thank you for these thoughtful posts. We are still quite new to embracing paedobaptism and have many questions and thoughts still on how what we understand would *flesh out* over the years.

Unfortunately, in our observance, both in the PCA church we were in AND the Sovereign Grace Baptist (so, one paedo/one credo, both identifying as *reformed*), the issue was not children failing to make public profession of faith, but rather children making public profession of faith/being baptized and STILL not walking in the ways of the Lord....and not much being done about it.

As a matter of fact, this is one reason we wrestled with the issue of paedobaptism for so long, both of us having been raised in baptistic churches. We were not even *aware* of the covenant aspect, we certainly did not see it played out.
 
Polly - I'm a paedo-baptist myself, but one of the things I also struggle with are the huge numbers of children that give false professions of faith because of church and family pressures. Many of my friends fall into this camp. Most of them have now come to Christ, but their original professions of faith were not heart felt and were only made because they didn't want to be called in front of the session. This concerns me.
 
Great posts Bruce.

I think the key point to remember is that hypotheticals are always difficult to consider. Bruce rightly notes that the issue is likely not going to be just a lack of interest in becoming a communicant member but it would likely be hard-heartedness or some other discipline issue that is coming to the fore.

Church discipline doesn't happen in a vacuum. Proper Elder oversight would mean that the discipline and instruction in the home and the child's interest in spiritual things don't suddenly come to light at age 18 when everyone asks why Johnny doesn't take communion.

In the natural course of discipline there are enjoinments (for all) that they press on to spiritual maturity. If a child is rebellious of this maturation process then that becomes obvious. What if, however, the child is not rebellious but consistently wrestles with things and doesn't rebel but can't completely rest in Christ. Do you give up at a certain point because "it just shouldn't take that long".

Hebrews makes for some good theology on this point. People who are even thinking about shrinking away are brought under the discipline of rebuke but are not put out because they're still so immature as to want milk all the time. The Church's role is not to separate the wheat from the chaff but to exhort all to press in.
 
Polly - I'm a paedo-baptist myself, but one of the things I also struggle with are the huge numbers of children that give false professions of faith because of church and family pressures. Many of my friends fall into this camp. Most of them have now come to Christ, but their original professions of faith were not heart felt and were only made because they didn't want to be called in front of the session. This concerns me.

So they would be called in front of the session if they had not professed? Was this at a certain age or time?

Thanks.

-----Added 7/22/2009 at 11:46:11 EST-----

Thanks everyone - please keep them coming.

In response to Bruce...let me try to hone it in a bit...and even then I may end up asking the same thing...:duh:

Your children have been baptized so they have the sign of the covenant placed upon them. This is either a sign of blessing or cursing. To me, this would have to be seen as a sign of cursing until profession is made, i.e. become a communicant member. To see it the other way would presume regeneration. (I know there are some here who believe that but that's another thread - unless you personally believe that and then I know where you are coming from)

So, for the paedo, how is it viewed upon their children who have not professed? And if it is a sign of blessing, when or if does this ever change?
 
So they would be called in front of the session if they had not professed? Was this at a certain age or time?

This happened to several of my friends in several different churches, so I think the approach was different. At least one of my friends made a profession at 14 because she was threatened with church discipline if she did not. The matter was causing a serious rift in her family and so she made a fake profession. The others weren't necessarily formally threatened but were called into meetings and otherwise badgered (for lake of a better word) until they gave in and made a profession that they didn't mean.

Some of my friends are actually still rather bitter about it. They feel that they were pressured to lie.

Edit: You asked about a certain age - I don't know that there was (and these were all at different churches), but it seemed to happen when they were in their early to mid teens.
 
Last edited:
Polly - I'm a paedo-baptist myself, but one of the things I also struggle with are the huge numbers of children that give false professions of faith because of church and family pressures. Many of my friends fall into this camp. Most of them have now come to Christ, but their original professions of faith were not heart felt and were only made because they didn't want to be called in front of the session. This concerns me.

So they would be called in front of the session if they had not professed? Was this at a certain age or time?

Thanks.

-----Added 7/22/2009 at 11:46:11 EST-----

Thanks everyone - please keep them coming.

In response to Bruce...let me try to hone it in a bit...and even then I may end up asking the same thing...:duh:

Your children have been baptized so they have the sign of the covenant placed upon them. This is either a sign of blessing or cursing. To me, this would have to be seen as a sign of cursing until profession is made, i.e. become a communicant member. To see it the other way would presume regeneration. (I know there are some here who believe that but that's another thread - unless you personally believe that and then I know where you are coming from)

So, for the paedo, how is it viewed upon their children who have not professed? And if it is a sign of blessing, when or if does this ever change?

I have a three y/o son, a 21 month old daughter, and a not-yet-born son. What I think it means for the child to be in the covenant but not yet having made a profession of faith is that we can trust in the Lord that His promises are to us and to our children, but we cannot know for sure that our children have yet accepted God's gift. We do not know when God's spirit will regenerate our children, but we trust and hope that it will. I don't think this changes the discussion about when to use discipline for non-professing children of the covenant. I think we wait on the Lord, until our children show or admit disbelief in God.
 
Somehow, I've never viewed this as being that complicated.

An adult is admitted as a member of the church after being examined for a credible profession of faith, being baptized and taking membership vows.

The infant child is admitted as a member based upon the faith of at least one believing parent, and is (infant) baptized on that basis.

Remember a couple things here about reformed theology and covenant community. The admission to membership is to the "visible" church (the church we see), as distinguished from the "invisible" church, which God alone sees, the true Body of Christ.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XXV
Of the Church

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7]

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

The baptism of the infant is based on faith, signifying what baptism represents- looking in faith toward salvation. It does not represent salvation itself.

This is why children are not admitted to the Lord's Supper until they have a credible profession of faith, that is usually after some study, examination, etc.

In between, the parents look in faith toward promises that relate to them and their children. Both the parents and the covenant community is bound by oath (vow) to also help raise the child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

There's no guarantee that the child of believer will grow up and be a Christian. After all, only God can do that according to the sovereign good pleasure of His will. But, there is great reason to hope because of the promises, which the baptism signifies, and the fact that the ordinary means of grace God uses to save, ordinarily come through the (visible) church, the covenant community, and believing parents.

We ought not presume more... or less than that.
 
In response to Bruce...
Your children have been baptized so they have the sign of the covenant placed upon them. This is either a sign of blessing or cursing. To me, this would have to be seen as a sign of cursing until profession is made, i.e. become a communicant member. To see it the other way would presume regeneration. (I know there are some here who believe that but that's another thread - unless you personally believe that and then I know where you are coming from)

So, for the paedo, how is it viewed upon their children who have not professed? And if it is a sign of blessing, when or if does this ever change?
"This is either a sign of blessing or cursing."
I think the question in your mind might be "when?" In one sense, as it is for every other baptized person ever, old or young: at the Judgment Seat.

Go into your average, everyday, 1000 member Breezy-Evangelical mega-church. Seeker-friendly, multi-media, your-best-life-now. Are you going to tell me that all them baptized folk (and you know +80% are baptized) have a "sign of blessing" on them, according to the standard I see you proposing? I'd wonder if half of them were even saved, given the ear-tickling they get, week in, week out.

But, in line with my theological commitment, I'm going to give them the judgment of charity. And I'm going to give the child who hasn't broken the yoke off his neck (Gen.27:40) the same judgment. I don't know when God regenerates. I only know that my children (under my ministry, if God be pleased) will hear the gospel in church every week, will hear it in their ears daily, in the prayers for them. They will not escape this Word.

And I fully believe (faith in the promises) that in one of those moments, his or her heart will be turned to faith forever, irrevocably (assuming he wasn't given a special dispensation at baptism, something we never know, but isn't impossible). And, if so, I will never know when it was, nor (I hope) will he.

If he ever goes under discipline, before a profession, or after, he should worry if the ground that drank in the rain so much is near to being cursed (Heb.6:7-8). But that is for God to decide ultimately. We can judge provisionally when that person dies, based on their final profession (or lack of one).

But all our judgments in this life are provisional. Baptism, of anyone, is no different.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top