Church/Members Asking About a Person's Vaccination Status

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
I would be careful on being too casual when it comes to what God requires in worship. I think it is this type of attitude that has allowed revoice into your denomination specifically, and CRT into almost every denomination. You say it is ok to meet virtually for a time. Many have taken this to mean forever. If after a year and change, someone is still not attending church I believe it is more than reasonable to start some sort of counseling. If they are truly that afraid and not just being lazy, then there is a problem there that needs to be dealt with. If they are being lazy, well, that is also a problem. This is not to say there are not legitimate reasons for missing church for a time, but I find most people not faithfully attending lately, do not fall into those categories.
Thanks for the input friend. I agree with you.
 

iainduguid

Puritan Board Sophomore
Not fake news.... plenty of conditions attached:

d. To ensure that COVID-19 convalescent plasma collected from donors contains antibodies directly related to their immune responses to SARS-CoV- 2 infection, you should not collect COVID-19 convalescent plasma from:
i. Individuals who have received an investigational COVID-19 vaccine as a participant in a clinical trial, or received an authorized or licensed COVID-19 vaccine, unless they:
1) had symptoms of COVID-19 and a positive test result from a diagnostic test approved, cleared, or authorized by FDA (i.e., individuals who meet the qualification for evidence of COVID-19 described in section III.B.1.a.1 above), AND
2) received the COVID-19 vaccine after diagnosis of COVID-19, AND
3) are within 6 months after complete resolution of COVID-19
symptoms.
Administration of COVID-19 vaccines for the purpose of boosting immunity of convalescent plasma donors would need to be conducted within a clinical trial under IND [21 CFR Part 312].
or
ii. Individuals who received an investigational COVID-19 monoclonal antibody therapy as a participant in a clinical trial, or received an authorized or licensed COVID-19 monoclonal antibody therapy, until at least three months after receipt of the therapy.

Anthony, I wish you would read and understand news items before you post them. If you don't have the expertise, please refrain from posting on a topic. These restrictions do not apply to general plasma donation but specifically to "COVID 19 convalescent plasma" - in other words, plasma that is being used to treat people with COVID. Of course there are going to be specific requirements in that scenario.
 

De Jager

Puritan Board Sophomore
Thanks so much for being charitable as well brother! It's especially difficult when communicating online when we are not in person, as it's hard to feel out somebody's character, but trust me I would never mean anything in a rude way or insulting way towards you. I always want to be kind and gracious.

I see you have some very thought-through reasons to have the convictions that you do have. Thanks for taking the time to explain why you feel the way you do!
Let's just put it this way...if you were at my house I would offer you a coffee and would have a chat with you in the living room, and that goes for anyone on the PB. I agree it's very hard to communicate that kind of thing via text only.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
Let's just put it this way...if you were at my house I would offer you a coffee and would have a chat with you in the living room, and that goes for anyone on the PB. I agree it's very hard to communicate that kind of thing via text only.
Amen!
 

A.Joseph

Puritan Board Junior
Anthony, I wish you would read and understand news items before you post them. If you don't have the expertise, please refrain from posting on a topic. These restrictions do not apply to general plasma donation but specifically to "COVID 19 convalescent plasma" - in other words, plasma that is being used to treat people with COVID. Of course there are going to be specific requirements in that scenario.
From the fact check you linked...... This is my main concern by the way. Why did the Red Cross not accept "convalescent plasma donations (not regular plasma donations) from those vaccinated against COVID-19 " ?
"Before they stopped collecting COVID-19 convalescent plasma donations on March 26 due to declining hospital demand and sufficient supply, the Red Cross said they were not accepting convalescent plasma donations (not regular plasma donations) from those vaccinated against COVID-19, which is why the confusion may have arisen (here , here)."
Why did the Red Cross makes this distinction? Specifically, that vaccinated are disqualified to donate "COVID 19 convalescent plasma" as featured in my originally linked report. https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1394860260410732547/pu/vid/576x314/eBQqOe4nAHMBUDfq.mp4?tag=12 The report says that the vaccine wipes out Covid-19 antibodies from recovered individuals making the plasma ineffective.
 
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VictorBravo

Administrator
Staff member
MODERATION

Let's drop the side discussions and links to controversies regarding vaccines themselves.

This topic has to do with interacting with other church members on the subject of vaccinations.
 

Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
I actually agree with you about lockdowns, I think once we have "flattened the curve" for hospitals they are a mistake. I'm all for opening everything.

But that is not the point I was making. I was trying to respond to accusations that people who stay home are in sinful fear and wrong to stay home. My church has plenty of older people and asthma people and so forth who watched church on their computer because they honestly thought it was the right thing to do for a period of time. They could be wrong, but accusations of sinful fear I think are just as wrong as saying home. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and we should be cautious in our accusations of sin.
I have said that people who have symptoms should stay home. But to stay home because they're susceptible to illness, even when they don't have it, is sinful fear. Fear can be a sin, if we fear the wrong thing. What did Jesus say again and again? "Fear not." Who tops the list of those who are without the Kingdom of Heaven? The fearful, followed by the unbelieving.
Even with these principles, it is not my place to judge those individuals who believed they were doing the right thing by staying home--every one has a unique situation, and to their own master they must stand or fall. But I do say that the churches who caved in to the government an stopped meeting were wrong. Every last one that did so was wrong. While individual members must make decisions for themselves and their families based on their own situations, the churches still have a duty to blow the trumpet and call the solemn assembly. I think God sent this pestilence partly as a means to test which churches would obey, and which would not. Sadly, most did not, and what a statement that makes about the state of the church in our day.
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
But to stay home because they're susceptible to illness, even when they don't have it, is sinful fear.
Ben, perhaps there is some room for nuance on this issue? Individuals can be susceptible to illness for various reasons. One common reason is a compromised immune system due to immunotherapy. Certain drug therapies can also weaken the immune system and cause a viral or bacterial infection to be life threatening. It seems harsh to accuse these individuals of sinful fear if they elect not to expose themselves to others while they are undergoing treatment.
 

Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
Ben, perhaps there is some room for nuance on this issue? Individuals can be susceptible to illness for various reasons. One common reason is a compromised immune system due to immunotherapy. Certain drug therapies can also weaken the immune system and cause a viral or bacterial infection to be life threatening. It seems harsh to accuse these individuals of sinful fear if they elect not to expose themselves to others while they are undergoing treatment.
You're right, and that's why I said it's not my place to judge individuals in their particular situations. Some do have a legitimate reason to abstain, and legitimate reasons to abstain abound even when not in pandemic mode. That being said, there are some in my own church who have never exhibited underlying health conditions who still refuse to gather, while several others, who have every reason to be afraid (one is exceedingly old with a wife at home who had ALS; another is brought in in a wheelchair), continue to assemble.
So, there is room for nuance, and there is need for charity. But there is also need for instruction and even discipline when tokens of illness or good cause for abstinence can't be produced. Otherwise, many will ride the train of lazyness and convenience and end up lost.
 

Reformed Covenanter

Cancelled Commissioner
Observing the discussion between Bill and Ben, it is helpful to keep in mind the distinction between a rule and an exception. The rule is that the saints should gather together for public worship. The exception is that people may be excused if they are either too ill to attend or at high risk of getting seriously ill if they do. In our day, however, people want to make the exception the rule. For instance, if I were to say, "It is your duty to work", someone would probably object, "But what about the people who cannot work?" Obviously, those who cannot work are exempt from the general rule, yet those exceptions do not nullify the ordinary rule.
 

alexandermsmith

Puritan Board Junior
Ben, perhaps there is some room for nuance on this issue? Individuals can be susceptible to illness for various reasons. One common reason is a compromised immune system due to immunotherapy. Certain drug therapies can also weaken the immune system and cause a viral or bacterial infection to be life threatening. It seems harsh to accuse these individuals of sinful fear if they elect not to expose themselves to others while they are undergoing treatment.

I think one issue of great concern is that the same people who have reacted so severely to the threat of covid showed no such caution in regards to flu or other viruses which can be very serious or even fatal. People who would happily have shaken hands with others, or sat shoulder to shoulder, or shared the common cup during the administration of the Lord's Supper, in winter seasons when flu (which kills thousands every year) and viruses like gastroenteritis are circulating through the person's own congregation, have reacted in the opposite way here. This is not a rational response to the circumstances we are in. Even if covid is worse than flu, it's not so much worse to warrant such a response. If someone had never thought of receiving the flu vaccine in the past, but now insists on receiving both shots of an experimental "vaccine" before he will even consider returning to church, then there is something very wrong.

That is not to say we can't be gracious to such a person and give leeway to our weaker brethren. But there comes a time when staying away from church, or abstaining from the Lord's Supper, stops being a permissable response to risk and becomes irrational fear or even unbelief. The Kirk Session has to make the judgment call when that line is crossed. My concern is too many sessions are unwilling to do so.
 
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KMK

Administrator
Staff member
I prefer to judge my fellow Christians on what they wear rather than their medical history. It's much easier.
 

Boreal

Puritan Board Freshman
Is your nose plugged at all as well?

Mine has been for over a year, and I have no idea why. My sense of smell has also been greatly reduced.

We had an illness in the family in February 2020, and I’ve since wondered if it was COVID.

Edit: This was meant for @Ed Walsh
 
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SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
I know a few people have made some comments that sort of imply that "asking about vaccination status violates HIIPA", but frankly, that's a misunderstanding about what HIIPA is and does.

This article explains well.

 

ChristianLibertarian

Puritan Board Freshman
I know a few people have made some comments that sort of imply that "asking about vaccination status violates HIIPA", but frankly, that's a misunderstanding about what HIIPA is and does.

This article explains well.

People think HIPPA is some sort of catch all that means they can never be asked about their health by anyone other that their doctor and that their health information can never be shared. I've run into this for years, since well before Covid. Your school and employer can ask all sorts of things about your health, including vaccination status.
 

Frosty

Puritan Board Sophomore
I have not and will not ask anyone their vaccination status.

If asked I would not be offended, but simply say 'no', with no explanation given. As Reformed Covenanter said, most folks who ask are just trying to create conversation.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
I have noticed at out church, nobody is talking about Covid, nobody's talking about the vaccine, nobody's wearing masks, and people are greeting each other with normal hugs and handshakes.

Most people listen to the mainstream news sources and obey health officials' recommendations, so I don't blame anyone for being cautious this past year, because that was what we were being instructed to do. But now that Covid seems to be coming to an end according to the officials above us, people are once again returning to what used to be normal.

It was strange, here in Florida I had friends at the beginning of Covid who were predicting mass church persecution, expecting the church to go underground, this being a sign of the end, etc. I chose not to believe it, and here we are, a year later, everything is normal again in the life of the church.

I can only speak of my situation here, and I sympathize with those who have it worse, but I am very proud of how the government and church handled all of this in our state. I have much to be thankful for being a Floridian. It is my hope that you all will prosper at this time as well.
 

Boreal

Puritan Board Freshman
It was strange, here in Florida I had friends at the beginning of Covid who were predicting mass church persecution, expecting the church to go underground, this being a sign of the end, etc. I chose not to believe it, and here we are, a year later, everything is normal again in the life of the church.
Have you seen what’s happening in the country above you?

And if those theories are correct, they have a long time to play out still. I wouldn’t be getting too complacent.
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
I think one issue of great concern is that the same people who have reacted so severely to the threat of covid showed no such caution in regards to flu or other viruses which can be very serious or even fatal. People who would happily have shaken hands with others, or sat shoulder to shoulder, or shared the common cup during the administration of the Lord's Supper, in winter seasons when flu (which kills thousands every year) and viruses like gastroenteritis are circulating through the person's own congregation, have reacted in the opposite way here. This is not a rational response to the circumstances we are in. Even if covid is worse than flu, it's not so much worse to warrant such a response. If someone had never thought of receiving the flu vaccine in the past, but now insists on receiving both shots of an experimental "vaccine" before he will even consider returning to church, then there is something very wrong.

That is not to say we can't be gracious to such a person and give leeway to our weaker brethren. But there comes a time when staying away from church, or abstaining from the Lord's Supper, stops being a permissable response to risk and becomes irrational fear or even unbelief. The Kirk Session has to make the judgment call when that line is crossed. My concern is too many sessions are unwilling to do so.
Alexander, when you write, "the same people" you are assuming something about others that you do not know. Unless we have intimate, first-hand knowledge of an individual we cannot be specific with our judgment. That is why this is a matter best left to the elders. As they attend to the those under their charge, hopefully they know and care enough about their flock to make the right decision as to how best to respond to those who are not attending worship.
 

RobertPGH1981

Puritan Board Sophomore
Just say something like, "I respect everybody's personal decision on the matter and choose to not discuss private information with others." By saying this you are not revealing if you did or didn't have a vaccine. If they continue to press just tell them to have a nice day and walk away.
 

De Jager

Puritan Board Sophomore
The real question, and it is a big one is whether churches will segregate their people based on vaccination status. I hear that in some states, churches are being told that vaccinated people do not have to wear a mask while unvaccinated do. Vaccinated people (unmasked) can sit in one area, while unvaccinated people (masked) have to sit in a different area, with different capacity limits in each area. Thus, at the door of the church we would have screening of vaccination status, and a segregation based on that.

And some churches will just go along with this because they have gone along with everything else.
 

Edward

Puritanboard Commissioner
Thus, at the door of the church we would have screening of vaccination status, and a segregation based on that.
Do like Target and Walmart - put a sign by the door that unvaccinated folks have to wear masks. I've not been questioned in either about a lack of mask. In countries with basic freedoms, if the government objects, just tell them to get lost. In totalitarian countries like Canada or China, the question is when to go underground.
 
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