Church Structure in Light of 1 Corinthians 14:26-40

[MW]

Brother, when you look at it objectively, does it look like Paul is saying he himself will know fully?

Your question presupposes your viewpoint that knowledge is content rather than mode. Can't you see that? Prophecy and tongues are modes of revelation. When I look at what Paul is saying objectively the imperfect refers to prophecy and tongues as modes of revelation. The perfect then refers to the completion of revelation. Then when he speaks of being a child and a man he is speaking of modes of acting. Face to face in the Old Testament refers to the mode of revelation given peculiarly to Moses. And when he finishes with saying that faith, hope and charity abide, that is, in the state of perfection, it is clear that he means in this life. Faith and hope will give way to sight and realisation in glory.

 

[Ben_Leevey]

Your question presupposes your viewpoint that knowledge is content rather than mode. Can't you see that? Prophecy and tongues are modes of revelation. When I look at what Paul is saying objectively the imperfect refers to prophecy and tongues as modes of revelation. The perfect then refers to the completion of revelation. Then when he speaks of being a child and a man he is speaking of modes of acting. Face to face in the Old Testament refers to the mode of revelation given peculiarly to Moses. And when he finishes with saying that faith, hope and charity abide, that is, in the state of perfection, it is clear that he means in this life. Faith and hope will give way to sight and realisation in glory.

Brother, I'm not sure if continuing this conversation (unless you want to) is fruitful. You're having to do so many gymnastics to maintain what you're saying. And frankly, the one who is not looking at it objectively is you.

 

[No Other Name]

Brother, I'm not sure if continuing this conversation (unless you want to) is fruitful. You're having to do so many gymnastics to maintain what you're saying. And frankly, the one who is not looking at it objectively is you.

Brother, I went back and purposed to like comments you made that I do not agree with, yet I approve of your apparent willingness to engage fruitfully with the topic. Asking great questions and giving what seems earnest replies to what is told to you with genuine disagreement that aligns with your viewpoint.

As far as it was going, you were tracking how you are looking at 1 Corinthians well and were getting standard Reformed replies from pastors with years of looking deeply into the text exegetically, and the whole conversation has been very productive.

Objectively, Rev. Winzer is not "doing gymnastics" here to maintain the historical context of the text. Go back and re-read the whole line of Q and A leading to this point.

The new branch of direction the dialogue is taking is on the branch of: modes of revelation. Do you deny different modes of revelation? I suspect not. Where do you see different modes of revelation throughout redemptive history?

And what - if any -reason for different modes of revelation can be gleaned Biblically through using Scripture to interpret Scripture?

Think wholly through the entire Bible of different modes of revelation before going specifically back to 1 Cor.

Just my suggestion of course. Only my two cents.

God bless you

 

[MW]

Brother, I'm not sure if continuing this conversation (unless you want to) is fruitful. You're having to do so many gymnastics to maintain what you're saying. And frankly, the one who is not looking at it objectively is you.

I understand that is how it appears to you because of your prior commitment to ongoing revelation. There are numerous exegetical points I have made over the course of our discussion. Feel free to interact with them should you be so inclined.

 

[Ben_Leevey]

Just to clarify brethren, I do not see prophecy and tongues as further revelation. What I refer to is foretelling, not forthtelling.|

I was alerted that some things I said in this thread are things I should not have said. I am sorry for where I have wronged any of you!

 

[Eyedoc84]

I do not see prophecy and tongues as further revelation

Then what are they?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Could you go a little more into what parameters scripture sets around our worship meetings?

Three times in Ex.25 & Ex.26 the Lord repeats his direction to Moses that he must construct the Tabernacle "according to the pattern" unveiled by God himself. These were "the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” Heb.8:5. Worship by the saints on earth, be it OT style or NT style, is bound to some manner of conformity with worship by the saints in heaven. All is one worship. When we assemble for worship, we ascend in the Spirit "to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling," Heb.12:22-24.

In Lev.10:1-2, two sons of Aaron were killed by the Lord himself on account of the unauthorized, "strange" or profane fire which they used when they otherwise went about their duties to offer incense within the Tabernacle. It is stated explicitly that what made their offering unacceptable was: failure to abide strictly by the Lord's command. Neither the incense they offered was improperly prepared, nor was it offered up at the wrong time, manner or place; all which essentials are plainly dictated elsewhere in the Law. But they made their own fire. Just one verse before, Lev.9:24, the Lord made his own fire a part of the Tabernacle ritual. Hence, kindling of fire being nowhere commanded in the Law, it was wrong and sinful to assume it might be done in any convenient manner that suited the minister. True worship comes prescribed to us, so that we will not fall into idolatry as is our nature. The people of God today are no more free now to worship by our inclinations than were the people of God in old time.

The King appoints his own audience. Worship is not our meeting, where God may show up if he is attracted by our sincerity or effort. He doesn't come when called. We are summoned to worship, as his subjects. Worship is revelation; in NT terms it is the revelation of Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God. Our worship is centered on who he is, and what he has done. Everything we do in worship has glory to Christ as its object. We sing God's praise. We pray as Jesus taught us we should and for those things which he directed us or which he demonstrated we should ask, both in what is recorded in the Gospels and in what his apostles taught as recorded in the Acts and Epistles. Our great High Priest forgives us our sins, as only God may do. The minister or elder takes the lead in raising the whole assembly's needs before our God with one voice. We observe the two dominical sacraments of the Lord on their right occasion, precisely according to his institution. Central to our gathering together is that teaching of the word by the Word in the mouth of his spokesman. The Prophet himself is our true Teacher. Our Lord Jesus is in his glorious session on Mt. Zion, and his disciples come to him, Mt.5:1.

There are other incidental elements which our worship might include, being observed in Scripture; but these which I have just mentioned in that previous paragraph are the fundamentals. God speaks, and we respond speaking his word back to him; or in the conclusion of worship we go forth believing his word in order to live out the ingrafted word. If you have any doubts whether anything I presented is actually biblical and prescribed, feel free to inquire for further justification.

I think if you will recognize that worship is about God, in Christ accomplished and made not only possible but real in every sense, and that what God has given by way of gifts was or is oriented to the end of revealing God in Christ to us; then it is not hard to see that various modes of revelation have certain suitability unto the end or goal (the telos) of worship. The gifts of Christ through his Spirit have no other or better telos than referring the recipients back to the Giver. They were not meant to terminate on us, or to get others to refer to us when we share a revelatory gift with them. If more "dramatic" gifts have faded from the scene, it is not because the church in general has neglected to cultivate them; but can only be because the need for them has gone as Christ, the dispenser of them, sovereignly determines. He is perfectly revealed in Scripture, now complete. In that word we have "everything necessary for life and godliness" because therein we "know him," 2Pet.1:3-4, cf. vv19-20 & 2Tim.3:15-17.

We pass amongst us Scripture promises, delighting in the morsels as they nourish us, finding after our fill there remain twelve full baskets to start our next share.

 

[Ben_Leevey]

Then what are they?

I would see them as Holy Spirit given power to state what has already been revealed.

 

[Eyedoc84]

I would see them as Holy Spirit given power to state what has already been revealed.

Then what’s the point?
I also fail to see that as a definition comporting with the scriptural record.

 

[Ben_Leevey]

Then what’s the point?
I also fail to see that as a definition comporting with the scriptural record.

For one, we have Acts on Pentecost. The holy spirit falls on them, they start to speak in togues, and Peter Preaches his sermon. He doesn't reveal anything new, but rather sets forth what they already knew:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17-18, ESV)

As far as you question "What's the point?" the answer would be, that when the Holy Spirit works through a man, into men's hearts, it has convicting effects: “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” (1 Corinthians 14:24-25, ESV)

We see this here:
“But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” (1 Corinthians 14:24-25, ESV)

 

[MW]

For one, we have Acts on Pentecost. The holy spirit falls on them, they start to speak in togues, and Peter Preaches his sermon. He doesn't reveal anything new, but rather sets forth what they already knew:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17-18, ESV)

The resurrection, ascension, and exaltation of Christ clearly comprised new revelation to the house of Israel. Acts 2:36, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Also, when Peter quoted from Joel he connected the apostolic period with the last days, that is, the last days of prophecy. Heb. 1:1-2 says that in former times God spoke by the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us by His Son. The Old Testament expectation was that when Messiah came everything would be revealed. John 4:25, "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things." And the anointing of Christ teaches us all things. 1 John 2:20, "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." Verse 27, "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

As far as you question "What's the point?" the answer would be, that when the Holy Spirit works through a man, into men's hearts, it has convicting effects: “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” (1 Corinthians 14:24-25, ESV)

If your view of prophecy is that it is not revelatory, then it is much the same thing as preaching, and the convincing work of the Spirit comes through preaching.