Clark: Scientific Reasoning is fallacious

Status
Not open for further replies.

RamistThomist

Puritanboard Clerk
I read this and was wondering what ye think of it. It seems, and I don't disagree that much, that Clark is trying to say that all scientific reasoning is fallacious, especially when it is set up as affirming the consequent.

If Hypothesis H is true, then Experiment E will produce results R.
Experiment E does produce results R.
Therefore, Hypothesis H is true.

What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I read this and was wondering what ye think of it. It seems, and I don't disagree that much, that Clark is trying to say that all scientific reasoning is fallacious, especially when it is set up as affirming the consequent.

If Hypothesis H is true, then Experiment E will produce results R.
Experiment E does produce results R.
Therefore, Hypothesis H is true.

What do you think?

I think science has it's uses. However I think it is far too often used to judge Gods word. And form that perspective it is terribly wanting.

How often has the church embraced a scientific discovery as truth only to discover later that this has been disproven and thereby the church has been teaching a lie?

Some things are undeniable observable and provable and those are science.

Somethings are scientifically unprovable and those are beliefs.

We should beware the difference.

(My second post and I'm already being controversial? So be it.) :lol:
 
I'm not sure I would agree with that Paul. Last year I read everything Clark wrote. I don't ascribe to his ideas, but I did find that his arguments around some of the scientific method stuff was helpful.

Science, at its best, is just guessing. Overall, that was his point. Not that he, you or I are afraid of science. But scientists have such a hard time beleiving that point that its worthy to press.

For example, I went to the doctor because my tailbone was killing me about 5 years ago. I couldn't sit down. He told me what was wrong and then he said that is where our "tails" used to be. I laughed. He smiled. I rbought him to the place where he had to confess, "yes, its hypothesis, and no, I dont' really know." As a matter of fact, he had to say, "You're right, I am guessing at everything." Then, I told him I knew someone who had all the facts, and who was there in the beginning - God. God knows everythings, yada yada yada.

So i like the argument that sciencne is fallacious even in things that you deem "necessary." Are they necessarily so on Saturn? Venus? Or in another galaxy? Are they necessary so given an infinitude of various probabilities in the experiement? Not really.

Helpful? Yes, science is. Exact? Not even close.
 
On face value I really like Clark's argument. I am going to look at Van Til on science as well--Paul, where would you recommend I start?
 
Originally posted by Paul manata

Fourth, when did scienctific reasoning start? Please don't tell me you have bought into the myth that it started with the Greeks.

What do you believe is the answer to this question Paul? Just curious, not really that interested in this thread.
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by webmaster
I'm not sure I would agree with that Paul. Last year I read everything Clark wrote. I don't ascribe to his ideas, but I did find that his arguments around some of the scientific method stuff was helpful.

Science, at its best, is just guessing. Overall, that was his point. Not that he, you or I are afraid of science. But scientists have such a hard time beleiving that point that its worthy to press.

For example, I went to the doctor because my tailbone was killing me about 5 years ago. I couldn't sit down. He told me what was wrong and then he said that is where our "tails" used to be. I laughed. He smiled. I rbought him to the place where he had to confess, "yes, its hypothesis, and no, I dont' really know." As a matter of fact, he had to say, "You're right, I am guessing at everything." Then, I told him I knew someone who had all the facts, and who was there in the beginning - God. God knows everythings, yada yada yada.

So i like the argument that sciencne is fallacious even in things that you deem "necessary." Are they necessarily so on Saturn? Venus? Or in another galaxy? Are they necessary so given an infinitude of various probabilities in the experiement? Not really.

Helpful? Yes, science is. Exact? Not even close.

Matt, most of what you wrote didn't have anything to do with what I said. First, I said if scienctific arguments don't purport to be necessary then they very well can't be judged for failing to stand up to deductive validity. It's kinda like saying the Red Sox are not a good baseball team because they can't ever win the superbowl. So, since this argument has been overthrown then I'd like to know how it is "fallacious," strictly considered?

One problem is that on many/most fronts scientific arguments are purported to be necessary. Hey this theory helps to do X, Y and Z. Therefore it must be right (or at the very least more right than the theory that it replaced). This is seen everyday in scientific fields.

CT

[Edited on 1-2-2005 by ChristianTrader]
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by Paul manata

Fourth, when did scienctific reasoning start? Please don't tell me you have bought into the myth that it started with the Greeks.

What do you believe is the answer to this question Paul? Just curious, not really that interested in this thread.

Has anyone defined scientific reasoning yet?

CT
 
Paul,

I was speaking to this:

so they just find it easier to say that all scientific reasoning is fallacious.

So I guess you didn't mean what you said?

you can still be an anti realist without saying that 'all scientific reasoning is fallacious'

That's why I said what I said.

I'd like to see a rebuttle to what i said about Adam. Unless "science" is predjudicially defined so as to exclude Adam then you'd have to say that Adam reasoned fallaciously before the fall.

I didn't know Adam took God out of the equation. Aren't we all talking about "science" as in "secularism applied to empiricism?"

Fourth, when did scienctific reasoning start? Please don't tell me you have bought into the myth that it started with the Greeks.

It started with the Greeks because I buy into all myths. :rolleyes:
 
And, we aren't talking about "science" as in "secularism applied to empiricism?"

Oh, OK.

Matt, do you believe that "science" means "to take God out of the equation?" So, based on this info you can see why I said the above.

Ahhhhhhh, no. Did I say that? Paul, you can be so difficult sometimes -REALLY. I thought you paid attention to words?

I agree, though, Clark is refuted by not only Adam, but also the saints in heaven. There is quite alot of reasoning going on there, and lots of experimental relationalism.

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by webmaster]
 
You would have to believe in common grace for that to be the case. I'd rather say God's indicriminate providence.

Do they occasionally get things right? Yes, but only from our worldview that houses truth. One must make a distinction between secular science, and science.
 
I'm with Paul on this one, in the main. On what basis does one deny the validity of science? On science? I mean, you have to show me the proofs that science is invalid, don't you? Well, that's science too.

I see, though, that we're working with different ideas of what "science" means. I would agree with Matt that the doctor was wrong in his statements, but I would not call his view scientific by a long shot. I think Matt showed well that its not science as much as it is merely generally accepted speculation. So its popular, and most everyone beleives it; but that doesn't make it right. Nor does it make it science just because scientists are the ones giving us such theories. Science is the small amount of actual work on the facts that is supposed to undergird that speculation that man used to have tails. What it is is one part factual, and ninety-nine parts extrapolation, fantasy, and extrapolation on fantasy. But that ninety-nine parts is not science just because the one part is.

Real science got us to the moon; and the lack of it got us into trouble. Now we're back to doing the real science to make space exploration safe again. We're not playing with theories, but with facts, and real logic, and solid and tested conclusions. Otherwise we would not dare send men up again.

All this talk about the ancient past is nothing more than a lot of hoopla with only a very little oomph to it. (Just thought I'd keep the jargon very scientific.)

When did it start? I agree with Paul: it started already in the garden of Eden.
 
I need to clarify one thing on both sides;

When I said *ALL* I was quoting from Boa & Bowman's book on apologetics, Faith Has its Reasons. I have yet to make up my mind on this. On face value I do like the attack on *secularistic science, as I have seen this line of reasoning used by evolutionists. On the other hand, it does appear that Adam used induction in the garden. I am enjoying the discussion, though. Thanks CT and Paul.
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by webmaster
They aren't infinitely omniscient.

was that the argument? That was ambiguous at best, proved too much at worse. I mean, you don't thin k ALL logical reasoning is fallacious, do you? But you're not infinitely omniscient, so.... You also admited that Adam reasoned scientifically, but he wasn't infinitely omniscient. I smell special pleading going on here.

You miss my point I think. think through it this way: Science must have a philosophy of life. If it does not, then it cannot furnish anyone with any real information about anything at all. How could it? A statement of fact is not an explanation. It is the very thing that needs to be explained. In this way, science explains nothing at all.

Scientists have attempted to rid themselves of the dilemma that science explains nothing. Some embraced the mechanistic model to cover their tracks. This taught that the universe worked a certain way and as a result of this “mechanistic” model, universal laws could be established. But that goes back to asking, can science establish the truth of anything? Would it be right or wrong to believe anything on insufficient evidence? If this is true, then how can science possibly ascertain the sum total of a given “thing” (whatever that “thing” may be) in order to verify it? If science is contained in a laboratory setting, how can it possibly give universal laws of nature an absolutism? How can they possible describe how nature works as a whole? Actually, the scientists knows he cannot, but he gives his best guess.

Paul, think of this, even in mathematical equations about a given “fact” the actual weight of an object or length of a measurement is never perfect. It is always plus or minus some amount, no matter how small that measurement may be. That was what we learned when we took a straight ruler and dropped it on the grounf once. It still looks straight, but its not. Its crooked. As a matter of fact, it was crooked before we dropped it because its not perfect. So science is never working with a perfect environment, not a universal environment. Can science tell me anything? They can guess, but can they factually tell me that what they conclude is universally true - infinitely omnisciently true? Not really. Scientists simply choose from an infinite number of possibilities what they think is best for the situation at hand. If mathematical equations alone could describe nature, for instance, the chance that the scientist will choose the correct formulation is one in infinity (or zero). Therefore, in reality, all the laws of physics are false. They are guesses.

Because of this great conundrum of absolutes, science does not claim to have “absolute truth.” This is especially true of the 21st century secular thinker. There is that word "secular" I was referring to. If earlier scientists would have claimed to found absolute truth, and it was verified in some way, then science today would not continually be revamping laws and ideas to suit new information. Einstein’s law of relativity now replaces Newton’s law of inertia. Mechanistic determination, then, is not, nor ever was, based on scientific observation, but on some other a priori idea. This sounds more like philosophy 101 than science 101.

What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by webmaster
And, we aren't talking about "science" as in "secularism applied to empiricism?"

I'll leave you all to play then.

But there's another problem. I'd say that the above's worldview can't account for what they do but would you say that *all* there reasoning is fallacious? Don't they come up with anything good due to common grace?

Can't one come up with something good but still be reasoning fallaciously? Not trying to defend Clark in particular here, but trying to follow your "exact" wording. Been burned by ignoring such before ;)

CT

[Edited on 1-2-2005 by ChristianTrader]

[Edited on 1-2-2005 by ChristianTrader]
 
Paul,

Pardon my Clarkian slowness :lol: but are you saying that inductive reasoning is more than just useful... it is also valid as long as one works within the one and only correct worldview?
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by JWJ
Paul,

Pardon my Clarkian slowness :lol: but are you saying that inductive reasoning is more than just useful... it is also valid as long as one works within the one and only correct worldview?

Yes, if one uses it within the correct worldview it is fine. Invalid seems problematic since Adam reasoned inductively before the fall. Also, depending on how you're using "validity" I'd want to be careful since youi might make the mistake of treating inductive arguments according to the rules of deduction. They are in totally different spheres. Inductive arguments can only be strong or weak.

When you say that Adam reasoned inductively in the garden before the fall, what are you referring to?

Also how do you differentiate between a strong and a weak inductive argument?

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
1. C'mon, Adam wasn't a Clarkian, CT. I'm referring to the dominion mandate. I'm referring to the naming of animals.

The issue is that I am not seeing how induction comes into play with naming the animals. Perhaps it is due to my present sleep deprivation.

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Also how do you differentiate between a strong and a weak inductive argument?

There are some generalization guidlines (most intro to logic texts usually have over one hundred pages devoted to inductive argumentation) we can use:

1. The sample should be sufficiently numerous and various (a general rule would be that: A sample of S should vary in every property (other than being S) that might be responsible for their being P).

How do you know what "might" be responsible?

2. We should actively look for disconfirming as well as confirming instances of an inductive generalization.

Fair enough.

3. We should consider whether a link between S and P is plausible in light of other knowledge we posses (i.e., inductive arguments are best used within contexts of broader knowledge).

So if your broader knowledge has falsehoods then your in a world of hurt?

All the texts I have seen admit that in an inductive argument the truth of the conclusion is not in the premises, i.e., the premises do not guarantee the conclusion (i.e., so stop treating them according to the rules of deduction).

Where is the truth if not in the premises?

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by ChristianTrader
Originally posted by Paul manata
1. C'mon, Adam wasn't a Clarkian, CT. I'm referring to the dominion mandate. I'm referring to the naming of animals.

The issue is that I am not seeing how induction comes into play with naming the animals. Perhaps it is due to my present sleep deprivation.

CT

well, I don't need to get into a side debate if you grant that dominion would involve inductive reasoing (which you did in the Cheung thread). If you grant this then Adam used inductive reasoning before the fall, while also reasoning fallaciously. Is this what you'd like to conclude just so save your ideas reguarding induction? Seems like a high (indeed, unorthodox!) price to pay.

I don't think I remember talking about Adam and naming previously. Perhaps I just forgot. I am still not quite sure how Adam went beyond any premises in his naming of animals.

As far as the naming goes: We musn't think that everyone else in the world thinks and uses language like Americans. There were thousands of years were names meant something, they were important, that is. Just read the Bible and see how important names were. Well, Adam didn't just arbitrarally sit down and see a hippo and say, "hmm, I think I'll just call that thing a hippopotomus." No, the names had to do with their essence, i.e., what marked them appart from the other animals, what made their *kind* different. To know this Adam had to study the animals. He saw particular characteristics and generalized about, say, hipponess.

But Adam had all cases in front of him from which to generalize. I thought induction had issues when went beyond the premises (all swans are black etc.) If Adam had all cases then he could not go beyond his premises.

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by ChristianTrader
Originally posted by Paul manata
Also how do you differentiate between a strong and a weak inductive argument?

There are some generalization guidlines (most intro to logic texts usually have over one hundred pages devoted to inductive argumentation) we can use:

1. The sample should be sufficiently numerous and various (a general rule would be that: A sample of S should vary in every property (other than being S) that might be responsible for their being P).

How do you know what "might" be responsible?

2. We should actively look for disconfirming as well as confirming instances of an inductive generalization.

Fair enough.

3. We should consider whether a link between S and P is plausible in light of other knowledge we posses (i.e., inductive arguments are best used within contexts of broader knowledge).

So if your broader knowledge has falsehoods then your in a world of hurt?

All the texts I have seen admit that in an inductive argument the truth of the conclusion is not in the premises, i.e., the premises do not guarantee the conclusion (i.e., so stop treating them according to the rules of deduction).

Where is the truth if not in the premises?

CT

These are all explained in detail. CT, I think you're just a sophist. I don't think you know what you're talking about (witness #1. I don't think you understand species and genus as used in classifi9cation) but just ask questions to try and get someone into a bind. If you're serious then answer your questions with the information given in the volumunous pages on inductive arguments and then refute those, then we can move on.

If you are talking biological classification, then I do understand such, if there is a different meaning in logic, then I wouldnt.

I dont care if you are in a bind or not. If you are correct and I am wrong, then I wish to be in a bind where I have to choose the truth to get out of it.

p.s. still waiting for your argument which proves that ALL inductive arguments are fallacious. I answered your question above and you never bothered to respond to mine but continued your sophistic tactic. I don;t mind playing, but I'm not in the mood for lawyering today.

I doubt such an argument can be given that proves such. I would not even know where to begin with such. My current issue with this is finding out how anti-realism intersects with induction. Once I figure that out, then I think I can get back to where inductive arguments fit into my system.

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by ChristianTrader
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by ChristianTrader
Originally posted by Paul manata
1. C'mon, Adam wasn't a Clarkian, CT. I'm referring to the dominion mandate. I'm referring to the naming of animals.

The issue is that I am not seeing how induction comes into play with naming the animals. Perhaps it is due to my present sleep deprivation.

CT

well, I don't need to get into a side debate if you grant that dominion would involve inductive reasoing (which you did in the Cheung thread). If you grant this then Adam used inductive reasoning before the fall, while also reasoning fallaciously. Is this what you'd like to conclude just so save your ideas reguarding induction? Seems like a high (indeed, unorthodox!) price to pay.

I don't think I remember talking about Adam and naming previously. Perhaps I just forgot. I am still not quite sure how Adam went beyond any premises in his naming of animals.

As far as the naming goes: We musn't think that everyone else in the world thinks and uses language like Americans. There were thousands of years were names meant something, they were important, that is. Just read the Bible and see how important names were. Well, Adam didn't just arbitrarally sit down and see a hippo and say, "hmm, I think I'll just call that thing a hippopotomus." No, the names had to do with their essence, i.e., what marked them appart from the other animals, what made their *kind* different. To know this Adam had to study the animals. He saw particular characteristics and generalized about, say, hipponess.

But Adam had all cases in front of him from which to generalize. I thought induction had issues when went beyond the premises (all swans are black etc.) If Adam had all cases then he could not go beyond his premises.

CT

You didn't talk about naming animals but you did talk about the dominion mandate. So, if all inductive reasoning is fallacious, and if Adam reasoned inductively before the fall, then Adam reasoned fallaciously before the fall.

I did talk about dominion mandate and how one does not need to be a realist in order to realise such a mandate. I was getting weirded out about talking about naming animals.

I am still trying to figure out how Adam reasoned inductively (going beyond premises)

Adam did not have all cases in front of him, I don't believe. Indeed, the hebrew word there is talking about a local place as opposed to the whole earth.

Let me restate. All relevant cases. I agree that there were other animals in order places. An argument could go like this.

1)God brought me all relevant cases
2)All cases of this animal (that I have seen) have X
3)X is an general characteristic of this type of animal.
4)Therefore the name must somehow include this characteristic.

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
I'm not saying I'm in a bind. I'm saying you're trying to get me in one rather than conversing.

Fair enough. If one thinks that they see a problem with another's viewpoint, such tends to occur.

If you can't give an argument for why you believe that all inductive reasoning is fallacious then do you believe it based on, what, faith?

At this point, I am just attempting to see if it is somehow necessary to allow the validity of Inductive arguments to get us something beyond "useful" views.

One last thing. You are saying that Inductive arguments could lead to something that is true but one could also be incorrect. So in the case of Adam, he could have simply got some animal name wrong?

CT

[Edited on 1-2-2005 by ChristianTrader]
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
1. Did you not say that inductive reasoning was useful in helping us to have dominion over creation; in the other thread?

Yeah. It doesnt have to be true in order to be useful. (unfortunately that which we think is useful now may turn out to be deadly in a few years) Are we talking past each other?

2. I don't get what your point is???

I am trying to figure out how Adam was arguing inductively.

CT
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
"Are we talking past each other?"

1. We must be because I'm dealing with calling it a FALLACY. If you admit, which you just did, that Adam reasoned inductively then you admit that he reasoend fallaciously before the fall. Am I clear now?

Where exactly did I admit that Adam reasoned inductively? I am not clear on that point. Can you give me an example of an inductive argument that you think he would have made?

2. You just admitted that he did, above.

Where? I am not trying to be funny here. One question, is all generalization considered inductive? Even if you know you have seen all relevant cases?

3. We can move on, or deal with other issues, but I've been on the same point since page one, I'm arguing against the idea that: 1. ALL inductive arguments are fallacious. 2. ALL scientific reasoning is fallacious. Have I made my case? If not, then respond. if so, then say-so and then bring up the next topic you'd like to discuss.

[Edited on 2-2-2005 by Paul manata]

1) So what you are saying is not fallacious is when someone says I did X, Y and Z experiments and therefore I think something might be the case? I would agree fully.

2)If this is just a restatement of 1, then I think I agree with you.

CT
 
Hi Paul, I saw this post and couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Paul manata
As far as the naming goes: We musn't think that everyone else in the world thinks and uses language like Americans. There were thousands of years were names meant something, they were important, that is. Just read the Bible and see how important names were. Well, Adam didn't just arbitrarally sit down and see a hippo and say, "hmm, I think I'll just call that thing a hippopotomus." No, the names had to do with their essence, i.e., what marked them appart from the other animals, what made their *kind* different. To know this Adam had to study the animals. He saw particular characteristics and generalized about, say, hipponess.

I've gotta ask, how do you know this, Paul? All I read in the Scriptures is:

Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
Gen 2:19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
Gen 2:20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Your assertion above does not seem to me to be justified *by the inspired text*. Perhaps you can justify your claim _about Adam_ from other scriptures (if so can you please tell us which?), but this seem *to me* like special pleading to justify your conclusion that Adam reasoned inductively pre-Fall.

Thanks!
Ricky
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top