College Education to preach?

[RJ Spencer]

I know that this has been asked on the board before, but there is a clear difference between the way that Reformed Baptists answer this question and the way that Presbyterians answer it so I'm going to put it in a poll form. Part of the reason why I ask is because I felt the call to preach at the age of 16 in a Methodist Church and this call was affirmed by the denomination. In the UMC there is no college required to preach, but there is college required to become an ordained Elder. I received a Laity certificate and was allowed to preach beginning at the age of 16, one of the youngest in the denomination to earn a Lay leader certificate. When I left the liberal UMC for the Church of the Nazarene I received a Local Ministers License, again without college and preached occasionally. I have my application on churchstaffing.com and I have been in contact with a non denominational Community Church in Montana about possibly being their next associate Pastor. Their lead pastor is a graduate of Master's seminary.

In another thread, https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/do-pastors-have-to-have-a-college-education.53359/ someone said that in America we have no excuse not to go to college. But College is quite expensive and I come from a very poor family, I feel that this "excuse" is quite reasonable. I do plan on going to school eventually though.

 

[RJ Spencer]

Please note also that I have over 13 years of teaching/preaching experience... if that matters.

 

[Jake]

Without commenting on your particular situation, you may be interested to know that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was a group which, arising out of revival, basically did away with most educational and confessional requirements of the Presbyterian Church. Nowadays they are quite similar to the Methodists.

 

[RJ Spencer]

Without commenting on your particular situation, you may be interested to know that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was a group which, arising out of revival, basically did away with most educational and confessional requirements of the Presbyterian Church. Nowadays they are quite similar to the Methodists.

I am familiar with Cumberland, they are not very reformed at all sadly. I wonder how much the lack of education of the clergy played a role in their turning away from reformed theology? I wish there was a way to take a theological test covering all of the courses that one would learn in Seminary, and if you passed it they'd give you the degree. I love studying theology on my own, I'm a little nervous that if I was forced to do it that it would no longer be a source of joy for me.

 

[Rom]

I am an advocate for a well-educated ministry - so I voted that a man "should" have a Seminary education. I even believe Ruling Elders should be encouraged to take courses and get some education if they can fit it into their schedule, even for non-credit. RPTS for instance, allows you to audit a class for $99 if you are onsite ($249 at a distance).

However, as a Presbyterian, I believe the power to ordain resides in Presbyteries. So, if a man passes all of the requisite trials (tests) in his Presbytery and has been suitably examined over a period of three years or so, such a degree is not necessary. In my mind, this is for extraordinary cases. Maybe time of life or something like that. If $$$ is the problem, I know that my own denomination heavily funds the schooling of its men. The denomination takes care of 2/3 of the tuition of RP men under care when they go to RPTS. That remaining 1/3 is not very much and Presbyteries often take care of that.

That said, it just so happens that right now a man ordinarily cannot get a decent grasp of the original languages, doctrine, preaching, exegesis, church history, etc. without a Seminary education. Some men could, and likely should be ordained without a "formal" degree.

 

[Jack K]

"Must" is too strong a word. But a man should take advantage of the best resources available to him and show himself teachable before presuming to preach. Where I live, in the US, seminary educations are widely available. A man who asked to be examined for the ministry without having pursued that education should, at the very least, be expected to explain why he had not been diligent about preparing himself that way.

 

[RJ Spencer]

I am an advocate for a well-educated ministry - so I voted that a man "should" have a Seminary education. I even believe Ruling Elders should be encouraged to take courses and get some education if they can fit it into their schedule, even for non-credit. RPTS for instance, allows you to audit a class for $99 if you are onsite ($249 at a distance).

However, as a Presbyterian, I believe the power to ordain resides in Presbyteries. So, if a man passes all of the requisite trials (tests) in his Presbytery and has been suitably examined over a period of three years or so, such a degree is not necessary. In my mind, this is for extraordinary cases. Maybe time of life or something like that. If $$$ is the problem, I know that my own denomination heavily funds the schooling of its men. The denomination takes care of 2/3 of the tuition of RP men under care when they go to RPTS. That remaining 1/3 is not very much and Presbyteries often take care of that.

That said, it just so happens that right now a man ordinarily cannot get a decent grasp of the original languages, doctrine, preaching, exegesis, church history, etc. without a Seminary education. Some men could, and likely should be ordained without a "formal" degree.

Wow $99? Of course in order to get a seminary degree one normally has to obtain a bachelor's, something that is usually much more expensive than seminary. Most denominations that might help out with seminary will not pay for your undergraduate studies.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

In the RPCI, if someone was a young guy in his 20s, it was generally expected that he hold a university degree before commencing his divinity studies. For those over 30, however, they only required candidates to have two A-Levels.

Given that there are so many Mickey Mouse degrees here in the UK at present, I am not sure what I make of the demand that someone has a degree. Prior to Tony Blair, far fewer people went to university, but now nearly 50% of young people go to university, so merely having a degree does not make one stand out from the crowd. Given that you would need to be a genius to fail many arts degrees nowadays, the demand is perhaps a bit outdated.

 

[Edward]

The question is far from clear. Are we talking about "Must", which I answered, or "Should", in which case my answer would change. As an officer in a PCA church, I subscribe to the standards of the denomination, and do not disagree with the PCA BCO on this point.

 

[Username3000]

I don’t think there is a one size fits all answer. A godly elder in the mountain villages of Peru is not likely going to have any formal education.

 

[JH]

Is it just me, or do majority of Presbyterians believe that one should attend a seminary of some sort prior to even being considered? I don't see this in a lot of Reformed Baptist circles, nor even my own. This question is not to engender strife, I'm trying to understand why this is.

 

[W.C. Dean]

I would say 'should have seminary' but with this caveat. I don't think that needs to be the case for every minister. If I remember correctly from reading the BCO (or some other document) of the OPC, seminary education is not actually required to be an OPC minister, but it's obviously preferred over the lack thereof. Your years of experience changes some things however. I can't speak for most denominations but I believe a robust understanding of the Word, with a detailed and firm theology, with the gift of preaching and counseling would be sufficient. Like I said before, however, a seminarian education is greatly preferred for the OPC. I like to look at the Puritan's standards for a minister as well, which are more difficult than our contemporary requirements. If I remember correctly, to be a Presbyterian minister to Puritans you had to have the entire Psalter memorized. I also believe young men right out of seminary should generally not be considered for the pastorate outside of extraordinary circumstances, but that doesn't apply to you.

 

[ChrisJuloya]

I voted for "should have seminary education" for the very reason already mentioned above. However, there are certain situations that having a seminary education would not be easily accessible that the church order may be revised to fit the reality of the church's situation and context.

For example, here in the Philippines, there are bar reformed seminaries. That is why there are some, by God's grace, who go to foreign countries to get their seminary degree who now have planted and are planting reformed churches.

Given the reality of the limited access to a reformed seminary, in our church, to be a minister, an MDiv is not a strict requirement. However, we also put importance to biblical education especially in the reformed tradition that is why MINTS has been of great help to us in providing rigorous seminary level reformed education even at the bachelor's level, while it is not yet fully established (yet hopefully will be a way towards becoming a local seminary) it has helped our churches with reformed biblical training where I for one am benefitting from.

Since I am already getting reformed biblical education as my under graduate, an internship in our church, and is being mentored by our pastor, should I still get an MDiv? Given the opportunity, I'd definitely want to and plan to after my internship, Lord willing!

Edit:

It was brought to my attention that there is a reformed seminary here in the Philippines where pastors and missionary teachers have been toiling faithfully to teach and promote the reformed faith. This is great news to those seeking for reformed seminary education and should be made known more. This would greatly increase options for me!

 

[ZackF]

This has been hinted at by others but your response options are not consistent. Some have “should” while others don’t. This loads your survey.

Formal education up to and including seminary isn’t always necessary but should be availed of if available within reason.

 

[RJ Spencer]

This has been hinted at by others but your response options are not consistent. Some have “should” while others don’t. This loads your survey.

Formal education up to and including seminary isn’t always necessary but should be availed of if available within reason.

I said "should", because I wanted to leave open the possibility for exceptions. Even you answered "isn't always necessary", if I took the "should" out it would imply necessity.

 

[Romans922]

At the end of the day because Presbyterianism is the biblical church ecclesiastical structure, this is determined by one’s Presbytery and not any one person here.

 

[Rom]

Is it just me, or do majority of Presbyterians believe that one should attend a seminary of some sort prior to even being considered? I don't see this in a lot of Reformed Baptist circles, nor even my own. This question is not to engender strife, I'm trying to understand why this is.

That is not true. In Presbyterianism one ought to come under care of a Presbytery before pursuing Seminary. As been noted, Presbyteries shepherd their candidates through the process. Typically in our denomination a man comes before Presbytery four times before ordination (once to be considered to come under care, and then three sets of examinations before Presbytery for a total of 13 exams).

 

[JH]

That is not true. In Presbyterianism one ought to come under care of a Presbytery before pursuing Seminary. As been noted, Presbyteries shepherd their candidates through the process. Typically in our denomination a man comes before Presbytery four times before ordination (once to be considered to come under care, and then three sets of examinations before Presbytery for a total of 13 exams).

Forgive me, I should have clarified moreso what I meant in my post. I was touching more upon the impression I get that Presbyterians seem more often than not to recommend and think ministers should attend seminary, whereas the RB circles I know of are merely concerned with a seminary equivalent education/preparation under care of your local body of ministers.

Personally, the only seminary I'd probably attend if God provided the funds would be Beeke's.

 

[StephenMartyr]

I voted for none:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Act 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

Albert Barnes on verse 13:

"They had not been trained in their schools, and their boldness could not be attributed to the arts of rhetoric, but was the native, ingenuous, and manly exhibition of a deep conviction of the truth of what they spoke, and that conviction could have been obtained only by their having been with him, and having been satisfied that he was the Messiah. Such conviction is of far more value in preaching than all the mere teachings of the schools; and without such a conviction, all preaching will be frigid, hypocritical, and useless."

I believe that a man that has had an encounter with God and walks with God is of more knowledge and power than those from the classroom only. Even look at John Bunyan.

Schooling isn't bad and learning isn't bad, but a degree should not (where is the verse?) be the factor in who and who can't preach.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Notice that God is the One Who gives the gift of "teaching". Not the schools. Plain learning from the Word of God and His Holy Spirit.

 

[TylerRay]

I know that this has been asked on the board before, but there is a clear difference between the way that Reformed Baptists answer this question and the way that Presbyterians answer it so I'm going to put it in a poll form. Part of the reason why I ask is because I felt the call to preach at the age of 16 in a Methodist Church and this call was affirmed by the denomination. In the UMC there is no college required to preach, but there is college required to become an ordained Elder. I received a Laity certificate and was allowed to preach beginning at the age of 16, one of the youngest in the denomination to earn a Lay leader certificate. When I left the liberal UMC for the Church of the Nazarene I received a Local Ministers License, again without college and preached occasionally. I have my application on churchstaffing.com and I have been in contact with a non denominational Community Church in Montana about possibly being their next associate Pastor. Their lead pastor is a graduate of Master's seminary.

In another thread, https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/do-pastors-have-to-have-a-college-education.53359/ someone said that in America we have no excuse not to go to college. But College is quite expensive and I come from a very poor family, I feel that this "excuse" is quite reasonable. I do plan on going to school eventually though.

As a Presbyterian, I'd say a man should obtain whatever education his Presbytery determines he needs. They are responsible for his training, and he is subject to them in the matter. No man is competent to judge his own competency.

 

[Gesetveemet]

Above all a man needs a calling and to be sent head knowledge does not qualify a man.

 

[earl40]

Not the schools. Plain learning from the Word of God and His Holy Spirit.

If Jesus was around and disciplining now, I would be with you.

 

[iainduguid]

Let's pose the question another way:
How much knowledge of the Scriptures must a preacher have? Of sound theology? Of the history of the church, and the various heresies that have tried her? Of sound theology of church practice and missions? Is it possible for a pastor to have too much of any of these things?

These are the things that a presbytery will examine a man in as part of their examination of his call to the ministry. They will also explore his manner of life and his ability to preach, along with his sense of calling to the ministry.

Speaking personally, I find myself still constantly learning in many of these areas after an MDiv, a PhD and more than twenty five years of pastoral ministry and seminary/college teaching. So how should a man prepare for such an examination for the high and holy calling of pastoral ministry? It may be possible for a man to prepare on his own, or under the tutelage of his own minister. But wouldn't it be better if he were able to study under godly men who have trained and gained experience in that task? Many pastors around the world have no such opportunity (which is why I try to travel and teach somewhere outside the US every year). But why would anyone who has the possibility of gaining such knowledge in a college or seminary setting turn up his nose at it as if it were something undesirable?

Whether a college degree is necessary as a prerequisite for that training is another issue...

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

I said "none" because of the way the question was worded. You seem to be asking how much formal education a man "must" have in order to preach. While I believe a minister must have a thorough and well rounded education, I would not say he absolutely "must" have a formal education in order to enter into gospel ministry.

 

[TylerRay]

I voted for none:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Act 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

Albert Barnes on verse 13:

"They had not been trained in their schools, and their boldness could not be attributed to the arts of rhetoric, but was the native, ingenuous, and manly exhibition of a deep conviction of the truth of what they spoke, and that conviction could have been obtained only by their having been with him, and having been satisfied that he was the Messiah. Such conviction is of far more value in preaching than all the mere teachings of the schools; and without such a conviction, all preaching will be frigid, hypocritical, and useless."

I believe that a man that has had an encounter with God and walks with God is of more knowledge and power than those from the classroom only. Even look at John Bunyan.

Schooling isn't bad and learning isn't bad, but a degree should not (where is the verse?) be the factor in who and who can't preach.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Notice that God is the One Who gives the gift of "teaching". Not the schools. Plain learning from the Word of God and His Holy Spirit.

If this line of reasoning is sound, the teaching/preaching offices of the Church are themselves superfluous. Who needs teachers? All we need is "Plain learning from the Word of God and His Holy Spirit."

You say you hold to the Westminster Confession. I'd encourage you to look into what the Confession means when it says we have "communion in each other's gifts and graces" (XXVI. i.)

 

[JH]

Amen to Iain's post. I believe the next questions should also be:

1) Are there any seminaries worth attending
2) If so, who are the remnant?

 

[Rom]

Amen to Iain's post. I believe the next questions should also be:

1) Are there any seminaries worth attending
2) If so, who are the remnant?

1) Yes.
2) This is not comprehensive: the ones I recommend include Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary (PRTS), Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary (RPTS), and Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS). There are more, I just haven't investigated them as thoroughly as I have the preceding.