Contemporary Worship?

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I find drums, electric guitars, bass, etc. to be wonderful accompaniment and have never had a problem with being distracted unless it was because of my own preferences. To each his own.
 
And here's Andrew rockin' out:

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Yeah! You wouldn't believe that some churches actually use African drums in worship. totally evil. rawr. Even if the drummer just keeps the beat I know where his heart really is . . . it's center stage!!?!11!
 
I understand a praise band to be somewhat like a rock band, with electric guitars, bass, drums, keyboard. In a contemporary worship setting they put on a show and play contemporary Christian music.

That is the kind of situation that repulses me and drives me out the door. I do not feel comfortable in that kind of enviroment at all. I hope our church never goes that way.

I have pastored two churches like that. One was a United Methodist church and the other a General Baptist church. I did not like the music at all. At least the Methodist church had a traditional service with hymns. Believe me when I tell you that it was about "putting on a show". The Methodist church didn't even have a pulpit. I used a lecturn (which I purchased myself) on the floor. One time we were having several local churches come over for a seasonal gathering and I put the lecturn on "the stage" so I could more easily address a larger group. The leader of the praise band moved my lecturn back onto the floor before the service. I guess he didn't want me to be the center "stage" of attention. :lol:

It sounds to me like you have a problem with a certain attitude that you have found, in your experience, among musicians who use 'Rock' instruments. Let me tell you, I have found just as offensive attitude from the little old ladies in the church choir. The desire is to be 'center stage' is a besetting sin for most musicians, regardless of their instrument. It is something they must guard against and it is something we should have patience with.
 
First, it needs to be understood that this board is Confessional, and that advocacy of not abiding by the RPW is not allowed -- that is, we are only allowed to do what we are commanded to do; it is not Reformed to argue that it is permissible if it is not disallowed.

Secondly, at the moment it will be necessary and helpful for those who *do* hold to the RPW to come together on our common ground: there are those of us who believe the RPW only allows Psalms and no instruments; some of us believe it allows hymns and an accompanying instrument. What is important, however, is that those in the latter crows consider the accompanying instrument to be but a circumstance: that is, strictly as an aid to singing. This is at odds with the multi-instrument "worship bands." If some "style of music" requires a lot of extra instrumentation to make it singable, it's time to start finding another style of music in order to keep the circumstances simple and un-intrusive upon the elements of worship.

I realize we are not allowed to talk about this but how do pro-instrumental people, using the RPW, confine musical instrumentation to mere accompaniment? How, using the RPW, are instruments called to be "un-intrusive" upon the elements of worship? Are instruments really circumstances?

Do we really *need* air conditioners or heating? What about electricity? Circumstances are things that aid in worship, but are not worship in and of themselves. So a piano or guitar (or the pitch pipe) may aid the congregation , but the music emitted from the instrument is not worship.
Just like the microphone or the speakers aid in the preacher's sermon. I guess technically these may intrude upon the elements, as they do change them, but they are not necessary and are not elements themselves.

What is the point you are trying to make with that particular verse Thomas? Of course Christ died for people from every nation. That verse says nothing about singing "new songs" from each new nation.

Besides Rev 5 describes worship and a particular event in Heaven, not Earth in the local Church in public stated worship.

Why would we sing more than Psalms in heaven?:worms:
 
Did God command the Temple to be heated or cooled? Did He command the Levites to use sound amplifiers? Did He set aside certain members of the cultic workers to put in chairs or pews?
 
Did God command the Temple to be heated or cooled? Did He command the Levites to use sound amplifiers? Did He set aside certain members of the cultic workers to put in chairs or pews?

I see what you are saying, and it's a good play, but with the RPW: no he did not do that, BUT we see that it is beneficial to worshipping him that we have those things, so we didn't seek a command nor do we consider these aspects allowable b/c not forbidden, so we call these circumstances. I was not really making a case but answering your question as to how we can consider instruments circumstances. The how is: we don't consider them a part of worship, but an aid.

(I personally question pews and rows, etc, as I do not envision the early church structured like that, but since I do not know church history or when churches took on this uniform look, I can't really speak on it.)
 
There's got to be a list, somewhere, of classic hymns which were formerly drinking songs (the music, I mean).

The bottom line is, if the music in our worship is of the hippy-dippy "I love God and he loves me and I am so happy" variety - the type which doesn't really say *which* god, it doesn't matter whether it's pipe organs or electric guitars. It's a stench. If the music can be sung in any "house of worship" because it's non-distinct, isn't that the real issue?

I have sung, and will continue to sing, in praise bands (I am not afraid to call it that) because the words we use are straight from scripture and praise God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. By name. The whole cultural "our music is better than yours" dispute is just plain silly. The church I go to now is 100% traditional, by the way, and that's just fine, too.
 
What is the point you are trying to make with that particular verse Thomas? Of course Christ died for people from every nation. That verse says nothing about singing "new songs" from each new nation.

Besides Rev 5 describes worship and a particular event in Heaven, not Earth in the local Church in public stated worship.

Precisely!
"from every tribe and language and people and nation" try to envision this!
whatever you imagine will pale in comparison to the real thing.
the awesome, diverse beauty of God's human creation.
i so much enjoy listening to the diverse music styles from true believers around the world.
 
Just wish to find out the perspectives' of you all on contemporary worship - is it biblical/scriptural?

As a person who has attended a RB church only for a few months, personally I find that many confessing Protestant churches (both RB/Presbyterian) tend to be cautious towards that, if not oppose it outright.

I am concerned about this because many youths today leave for those megachurches since they are tired of "old-fashioned services", and also feel that somewhat culturally they don't belong to traditional churches (and even more if it's "fundamentalist").

Now I'm not advocating for churches to adopt the "purpose-driven" garbage, but here's one question - does contemporary worship - i.e. music, style, etc. conform to the Regulative Principle? Or partially, or not at all?

*Without getting into an Exclusive Psalmody debate :)*

If the church does not only sing Psalms during worship then it doesn't matter what it is, it violates the Regulative Principle of Worship. ;)
 
I find drums, electric guitars, bass, etc. to be wonderful accompaniment and have never had a problem with being distracted unless it was because of my own preferences. To each his own.

I should clarify what I meant about the instruments in worship. Electric guitars, pipe organs at certain volume levels are inherently distracting and are not appropriate for worship (at least those volume levels). Drums aren't wrong in for worship in themselves, but many churches in America today use them wrongly in worship. The drum often becomes more than accompaniment. Drums are a loud instrument, and can easily distract, so you have to be very wise if you would use them for worship.
 
Ben, unless I have missed something somewhere along the line, the use of instruments as a circumstance is the one argument which RPW-adhering instrumentalists bring forth. Someone please correct me here if I am mistaken. Since the people may have a hard time singing together without aid, they provide an accompaniment to allow the element to be performed more smoothly. If an instrumentalist reading this take exception to my description of your position, please correct.

Ah, I see the use of instruments as commanded in worship, not as an element, but commanded none the less. 2 Chron 29:25
He then stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king’s seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the Lord through His prophets.
There is no doubt in my mind that "the command was from the Lord" in reference to the Levites using cymbals, harps, and lyres is more than just circumstance, though the particular kind of instrument might be circumstance, the command is that instruments be used. While this is certainly OT, there are forms which are carried forward (e.g., circumcision is carried forward as baptism -- even if one disagrees on to whom baptism is applied, it is still carried forward).

So while some might say that instruments are circumstances, I would say the type might be circumstances, but the use of instruments is commanded.
 
I've looked at NT scripture and the WCF in regards to corporate worship. Except for Paul and Silas singing hymns in prison while other prisoners listened, I don't see another example until Revelation where a unison of voices is mentioned. The texts in Ephesians and Colossians that mention psalms, hymns, and spritual songs in context seem to be instructional for daily individual Christian living. You speak to one another in psalms. You sing and make music in your heart. In I Corinthians 14:26 "...each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation ...." Two or three prophesied one by one so that all were encouraged, could not two or three also have presented their psalm one by one to do the same. If an individual teacher, who the congregation focuses on, can encourage the body by themselves and not draw attention away from God by their individualism, cannot the God gifted soloist, choir, or praise team also encourage the body without being guilty of distracting us from God's glory?
 
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Just wish to find out the perspectives' of you all on contemporary worship - is it biblical/scriptural?

As a person who has attended a RB church only for a few months, personally I find that many confessing Protestant churches (both RB/Presbyterian) tend to be cautious towards that, if not oppose it outright.

I am concerned about this because many youths today leave for those megachurches since they are tired of "old-fashioned services", and also feel that somewhat culturally they don't belong to traditional churches (and even more if it's "fundamentalist").

Now I'm not advocating for churches to adopt the "purpose-driven" garbage, but here's one question - does contemporary worship - i.e. music, style, etc. conform to the Regulative Principle? Or partially, or not at all?

I believe much depends on the definition of "contemporary worship."

If all that means is new melodies and new versifications, of course there's nothing wrong with contemporary worship. Even the strictest exclusive-psalmody non-instrumental Covenanter could sing a "contemporary" versification of a psalm with a new tune, as long as both the text and the tune of the versification faithfully reflect both the mood and the words of the psalm.

The problem is not with new words or new tunes, but rather with a type of worship that focuses on entertaining people, which focuses on "happy feelings" instead of the full range of biblical topics, and which devalues singing the words God gave us for singing in the Psalms and replaces them with man-made words that often avoid "uncomfortable" topics when the Bible does not avoid them.

In short, the term "contemporary worship" has too often become a synonym for worship which fails to take into account the tremendous seriousness of human sin and which truncates the fulness of biblical revelation, focusing instead on a few areas which may be Scriptural but are only part of what Scripture teaches.

Note carefully that it is very possible to use "contemporary worship" and not explicitly sing anything contrary to the Bible, but at the same avoid things which are not comfortable topics. That is the danger inherent in contemporary worship -- not that it's necessarily openly unbiblical (though it often is), but rather than it is sub-biblical by avoiding hard truths that need to be taught through song as well as through preaching.
 
Just wish to find out the perspectives' of you all on contemporary worship - is it biblical/scriptural?

As a person who has attended a RB church only for a few months, personally I find that many confessing Protestant churches (both RB/Presbyterian) tend to be cautious towards that, if not oppose it outright.

I am concerned about this because many youths today leave for those megachurches since they are tired of "old-fashioned services", and also feel that somewhat culturally they don't belong to traditional churches (and even more if it's "fundamentalist").

Now I'm not advocating for churches to adopt the "purpose-driven" garbage, but here's one question - does contemporary worship - i.e. music, style, etc. conform to the Regulative Principle? Or partially, or not at all?

Those who go to church to avoid "old fashioned services" are probably just as well not going at all. They're going for their own amusement.

-----Added 11/18/2009 at 12:45:52 EST-----

Did God command the Temple to be heated or cooled? Did He command the Levites to use sound amplifiers? Did He set aside certain members of the cultic workers to put in chairs or pews?

I think you're beating down a straw man. The RPW doesn't apply to the building, but rather how we conduct worship. The building is divorced from how we conduct worship so far as I can see.
 
-----Added 11/18/2009 at 12:45:52 EST-----

Did God command the Temple to be heated or cooled? Did He command the Levites to use sound amplifiers? Did He set aside certain members of the cultic workers to put in chairs or pews?

I think you're beating down a straw man. The RPW doesn't apply to the building, but rather how we conduct worship. The building is divorced from how we conduct worship so far as I can see.

I Agree that the RPW does not "apply" to the building per se. My point was that instruments in the worship of God are not analogous to heating and cooling. The establishment and ordering of the workings of the Temple cult show that instruments were intimately tied to the worship in the Temple and are were and are not circumstances.
 
Well If by "contemporary" you mean the current so called "Christian" songs being produced today, those with shallow lyrics that sound more like modern rock/rap songs than traditional Christian hymns and Psalms then yes I am against them. I take this position for two reasons.

First and most importantly, virtually all of these songs are theologically shallow and are therefore breaking Paul's exhortation in Col 3:15-17, that we are to be "teaching and admonishing" one another with our musical worship. Modern worship songs simply do not do this, as they are based on simple melodic repetitions and devoid of any substantive musical or theological content.

Secondly, these songs seem to give a nod to worldly styles of music which are generally speaking unchristian and ungodly i.e. rap/rock. Moreover, in my experience those who prefer and promote these types of music are, generally speaking, very shallow and are more interested in entertainment than in Biblical worship. I know it sounds like a broad brush and perhaps it is, but few if any of the people I known that have promoted contemporary worship aggressively have properly understood Biblical worship. They seem to be of the mind that worship is about them and their enjoyment, rather than about God and his glory. Again, I hope this didn't offend anyone I am just relating my understanding of contemporary music and its promoters.
 
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