Conversion Experience and the Reformed Faith

[JohnOwen007]

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for your thoughts, they're great. I wonder, perhaps, if your explanation has gone just a little too far concerning past experience(s)?

It would seem that if there is a past experience in these "positional aorists" the apostle uses, then it is the experience of the One for the many.

Certainly Christ's experience is central. However, the words are since "you have been raised with Christ". There has to be some knowledge that the "you" has been united with Christ in the past. I might not be able to know when that actually happened, but I know is has happened, even if I don't feel like it in the present.

It's Calvin's idea of a "sure and certain knowledge of God's benevolence [...] in Christ" that then gives me the incentive to obey. We are no longer slaves to fear (Rom. 8:15).

This leads us to see that salvation in Christ is a complete break with the past and the establishment of something altogether new. The beauty of this manner of speaking is the way in which it imperceptibly takes the focus off of oneself and places it upon what Christ has done.

Amen!

But there are also implications for the one who has come to identify himself with that definitive salvation -- imperative implications. The result is that the assurance of personal possession is always stated in terms of manifestation: IF this is true, THEN this will evidence itself. And it is noticeable that the evidence is always stated in terms of a process, and is never seen as a product.

Yes, indeed!

This indicates that intention is paramount and perfection itself is only a goal, not a present attainment. In Phil. 3, we have the apostles own "experimental" view of it, where two points become clear. (1.) His own experiences are dross and Christ is all. (2.) He does not consider himself as having already attained, but always presses towards the mark.

I'm not sure I fully grasp what you're saying here. Paul's "experiences" in Phil. 3 concern his pre-conversion boastings, which he counts as rubbish.

At the beginning of Phil. 2 Paul actually points to past (subjective) experiences the Philippians have had, as an incentive for the present:

Phil 2:1 (NIV) If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

 

[MW]

Thanks for your thoughts, they're great. I wonder, perhaps, if your explanation has gone just a little too far concerning past experience(s)?

Thanks, Marty, for making me be precise.

Certainly Christ's experience is central. However, the words are since "you have been raised with Christ". There has to be some knowledge that the "you" has been united with Christ in the past. I might not be able to know when that actually happened, but I know is has happened, even if I don't feel like it in the present.

It's Calvin's idea of a "sure and certain knowledge of God's benevolence [...] in Christ" that then gives me the incentive to obey. We are no longer slaves to fear (Rom. 8:15).

I suppose I would go back to Col. 2:12, where the apostle established the point that they are raised with Christ, and stressed that it is through faith of the operation of God. It is sovereign, objective, unseen. The same would be true in Calvin's focus. By retaining the objective element you never get to that point where you do not feel like it in the present. Christ's death and resurrection are a ubiquitous reality. I don't doubt that believers have subjective encounters; but I maintain that the Holy Spirit always turns the attention of the believer to the objective reality of the person and work of Christ as the measure of all things. Our experience always falls short in some way, shape, or form.

I'm not sure I fully grasp what you're saying here. Paul's "experiences" in Phil. 3 concern his pre-conversion boastings, which he counts as rubbish.

At the beginning of Phil. 2 Paul actually points to past (subjective) experiences the Philippians have had, as an incentive for the present:

Phil 2:1 (NIV) If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

I'm not sure that they are pre-conversion boastings up to ver. 9; but rather they are his confidences in the flesh, which even then he could have boasted in, if he had a mind to. But a true Christian has no confidence in the flesh, but rejoices in Christ Jesus. At any rate, Phil 3:10ff speaks of his present attainments, which he classifies as possessing a not-yet quality.

It's noteworthy that even in these Phil. 2 "experiences," there is something lacking in them which the apostle needs to address; and ultimately he points them yet again to Christ as the measure of all things, ver. 5ff.

 

[JohnOwen007]

I suppose I would go back to Col. 2:12, where the apostle established the point that they are raised with Christ, and stressed that it is through faith of the operation of God. It is sovereign, objective, unseen. The same would be true in Calvin's focus. By retaining the objective element you never get to that point where you do not feel like it in the present. Christ's death and resurrection are a ubiquitous reality. I don't doubt that believers have subjective encounters; but I maintain that the Holy Spirit always turns the attention of the believer to the objective reality of the person and work of Christ as the measure of all things. Our experience always falls short in some way, shape, or form.

Ok, great. I understand where you're coming from and I entirely agree. Indeed, in my own Christian life it's almost as if I've been forced to this position because other spiritualities just don't work. The objective reality of Christ's work is just wonderful! In fact, I'd better be careful because I might have an experience of joy right now thinking about it ...

It's noteworthy that even in these Phil. 2 "experiences," there is something lacking in them which the apostle needs to address; and ultimately he points them yet again to Christ as the measure of all things, ver. 5ff.

Yes, of course. My point is not a complete denial of them--just putting them in their right place.

God bless you Matthew.

 

[MW]

The objective reality of Christ's work is just wonderful! In fact, I'd better be careful because I might have an experience of joy right now thinking about it ...

Blessings, Marty.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I suppose I would go back to Col. 2:12, where the apostle established the point that they are raised with Christ, and stressed that it is through faith of the operation of God. It is sovereign, objective, unseen. The same would be true in Calvin's focus. By retaining the objective element you never get to that point where you do not feel like it in the present. Christ's death and resurrection are a ubiquitous reality. I don't doubt that believers have subjective encounters; but I maintain that the Holy Spirit always turns the attention of the believer to the objective reality of the person and work of Christ as the measure of all things. Our experience always falls short in some way, shape, or form.

Ok, great. I understand where you're coming from and I entirely agree. Indeed, in my own Christian life it's almost as if I've been forced to this position because other spiritualities just don't work. The objective reality of Christ's work is just wonderful! In fact, I'd better be careful because I might have an experience of joy right now thinking about it ...

Inded, 'tis a truth I never tire of proclaiming. That so many Evangelicals restlessly seek temporary, therapeutic comfort in their emotional highs breaks my heart. The objective work of Christ is a bottomless well of comfort and motivation for me. I thirst not!