Coral Ridge Ends Age-Segregated Worship

[Zenas]

Am I the only young person who would attend the "old folks" service?

 

[Tripel]

Am I the only young person who would attend the "old folks" service?

If the "old folks" service is the one with the traditional style, then no, I'd be there too.

 

[raekwon]

Ahh, "traditional" and "contemporary" are such meaningless words when it comes to this stuff! Whose traditions? Whose contemporaries?

 

[Zenas]

Are you young enough to be in the "young persons" club?

 

[Tripel]

Ahh, "traditional" and "contemporary" are such meaningless words when it comes to this stuff! Whose traditions? Whose contemporaries?

I understand your point, but the terms are not meaningless. In a discussion about worship services among a reformed group of people, there is a general consensus regarding the meaning of "traditional" and "contemporary". They may not be the perfect terms, but they do have meaning.

---------- Post added at 09:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------

Are you young enough to be in the "young persons" club?

I like to think so, but I'm feeling older by the day.

 

[Edward]

Heh. Had no idea that the folk who disagreed with the new pastor left CRPC and formed a new church.

Not a good look, in my opinion. Taking your ball and going home is childish.

I would suggest that you do some additional research before commenting further. I realize that the new pastor at Coral Ridge is popular here, so I don't want to get into extended debate. I don't believe, however, that it is fair to characterize it as 'taking your ball and going home' when ordered off the premises.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Fair enough Edward. I'll back off my comments and do some more digging first. You are right.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

A little digging turned this up:
http://churchexecutive.com/archives...ents-challenge-the-leadership-of-a-new-pastor

Comments section is the important area for me:

Another comment from a dissident. Unfortunately, Tulian Tchivijian has been speaking around the country on radio and television and giving his side of the story. The other side needs to be heard as well. Concerning some of his comments: “Coral Ridge had become widely known for what it was against much more than what it was for.” You can’t be serious! Dr. Kennedy biggest contribution to the cause of Christ was Evangelism Explosion equipping lay people to share their faith. In its 45 years since its inception over 50 million people around the world have made professions of faith. What’s negative about that? Being pro life and against abortion is a negative thing? Showing concern for our country and being patriotic and that includes politics is a bad thing? In one sentence Tulllian has dismissed a lifetime of ministry of Dr. Kennedy. “Attracting the same kinds of people Jesus attracted was hated by the dissidents.” I don’t recall any one raising that objection. “People have apologized and repented.” For what? Should many leaders in the reformed community and PCA who supported the dissidents 100% repent also? Matthew 5:23-24 “Therefore if you are offering your gift at the atlar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother then come and offer your gift.” “They never once asked to meet with me (Tullian) face to face.” Even if this was true and I heard many did try. Tullian said he vowed to change CRPC. Personally I like the idea of robes, however to change to suits was not a big deal. Contemporary music is good music. Couldn’t you have gradually made changes? Explain why you are making them? Honor and respect the past?
The statement “the issues they were raising weren’t the real issues.” What are you referring to? Was it really asking too much from you to participate in EE? No we didn’t ask you to focus on politics. Just agree that politics is important. It does affect the way we live and it’s okay to occassionally speak out about it from the pulpit. I am convinced that this split would not have happened if as Gary said, character, love, humilty and compassion had been put into practice.

I'm going to kinda head back to my original statement now. Those folks associated with CRPC's "old ways" seem to wanna kinda stay there.

Personally, while some issues do need to be addressed from the pulpit, politics as a whole needs NOT to be. Our first allegiance on Sunday morning is to Christ, not America. There's been a dangerous and dirty merging of American patriotism with Christianity for years and it's done more to HURT the gospel and muddle the message (i.e. Beck's rally wasn't only supported by Mormons....) of the gospel with the idea of cultural renewal.

I noticed that one of the things stressed by the break-away group on their website was the 'Cultural Mandate'. While I do find instructions for those living in exile and living transgenerationally (i.e. Jeremiah 29), I don't find the type of "American Patriot = Christian" transformational model that is popular among conservative folk today in scripture. I know this steps on the toes of quite a few people, but in all honesty, stop trying to add to the gospel. The gospel of American Patriotism has probably done more harm to 'us' when we do step into the public arena because we've allowed the message of the gospel to be co-opted for political gain and or the rose-colored imaginary "when I was younger" days that everyone wants to turn the country 'back' to (my take: it was never there to begin with....).

---------- Post added at 01:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 AM ----------

Fair enough Edward. I'll back off my comments and do some more digging first. You are right.

Aaaand, I'm back.

A little digging turned this up:
A Ray of Hope in South Florida | internetmonk.com

Comments section:

I think some of you people are drinking Tullian’s Kool-Aid. I am a victim of his takeover of Coral Ridge Church. I listened to him stand in front of our congregation and promise the people that those who worked at CR would not lose their jobs, the worship music and service would stay the same, and he was a “cultural mandate junkie” who would continue DJK’s legacy. The day after he was installed as pastor, he fired the worship team leader and told the worship team (some of whom had been singing for 17 years!) that they would have to audition to be on the new worship team. I watched in horror as he systematically replaced ministry leaders who had years of experience with younger people from his former church. I waited in a lineup in the hallway on June 2, 2009, while one by one, ministers and other employees were called in to the HR director’s office to be fired from our jobs. I witnessed his rage as he charged after a choir member who dared to challenge him. We went through another “purging” as our “secret” ballots were not so secret, and any choir member who voted against him was told they could not sing anymore. This was done without the benefit of approval by the Session. He took out the traditional prayers and hyms from the worship service. You say he preaches the Gospel, but I seldom heard the name of Jesus Christ from his pulpit, and I never heard him ask people to recite the sinners’ prayer and give their lives to Jesus Christ. He blames the exodus of the “dissidents” on our desire to continue political activism, all the while ignoring his own role in our leaving. He always manages to blame someone or something else for what goes wrong. His ego will not allow him to accept the blame. We didn’t leave because we wanted to maintain DJK’s legacy. We left because the new pastor was unbearable. We are not idolators. We don’t worship the building or the politics or the choir. We just wanted the purity of our theology to remain intact. Our new church is a joyful, happy place where we rejoice in tradition but delight in the fact that Jesus Christ is being preached every Sunday, and it doesn’t take 18 weeks to get across the message. (His next book will be your new sermon series, I’m sure.) I wish you all well, but I, for one, will never go back to the white elephant on Federal Highway.

and also (in response to it..also in the comments):

Its really sad to see how some people such as Monzillo harbor such anger and hatred and continue to spew it across the internet. Tullinan’s sermons are filled with the Gospel of Jesus to no end and I am at a loss where the accusation that he lacks that exists. CRPC is thriving and there are a majority of older/long timer members that stayed and would strongly not agree with the propaganda that has been spread about. There are many key people still there from the previous administration. Another thing I see is the church does not reach its hand into the peoples pocket so hard.

My prayer is that we can accept each other in the name of Christ our Lord and put aside our differences so we may move the kingdom forward… amen

I also found this:

http://churchexecutive.com/archives...ents-challenge-the-leadership-of-a-new-pastor

Comments section is the important area for me:

Another comment from a dissident. Unfortunately, Tulian Tchivijian has been speaking around the country on radio and television and giving his side of the story. The other side needs to be heard as well. Concerning some of his comments: “Coral Ridge had become widely known for what it was against much more than what it was for.” You can’t be serious! Dr. Kennedy biggest contribution to the cause of Christ was Evangelism Explosion equipping lay people to share their faith. In its 45 years since its inception over 50 million people around the world have made professions of faith. What’s negative about that? Being pro life and against abortion is a negative thing? Showing concern for our country and being patriotic and that includes politics is a bad thing? In one sentence Tulllian has dismissed a lifetime of ministry of Dr. Kennedy. “Attracting the same kinds of people Jesus attracted was hated by the dissidents.” I don’t recall any one raising that objection. “People have apologized and repented.” For what? Should many leaders in the reformed community and PCA who supported the dissidents 100% repent also? Matthew 5:23-24 “Therefore if you are offering your gift at the atlar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother then come and offer your gift.” “They never once asked to meet with me (Tullian) face to face.” Even if this was true and I heard many did try. Tullian said he vowed to change CRPC. Personally I like the idea of robes, however to change to suits was not a big deal. Contemporary music is good music. Couldn’t you have gradually made changes? Explain why you are making them? Honor and respect the past?
The statement “the issues they were raising weren’t the real issues.” What are you referring to? Was it really asking too much from you to participate in EE? No we didn’t ask you to focus on politics. Just agree that politics is important. It does affect the way we live and it’s okay to occassionally speak out about it from the pulpit. I am convinced that this split would not have happened if as Gary said, character, love, humilty and compassion had been put into practice.

I'm going to kinda head back to my original statement now. Those folks associated with CRPC's "old ways" seem to wanna kinda stay there.

Personally, while some issues do need to be addressed from the pulpit, politics as a whole needs NOT to be. Our first allegiance on Sunday morning is to Christ, not America. There's been a dangerous and dirty merging of American patriotism with Christianity for years and it's done more to HURT the gospel and muddle the message (i.e. Beck's rally wasn't only supported by Mormons....) of the gospel with the idea of cultural renewal.

I noticed that one of the things stressed by the break-away group on their website was the 'Cultural Mandate'. While I do find instructions for those living in exile and living transgenerationally (i.e. Jeremiah 29), I don't find the type of "American Patriot = Christian" transformational model that is popular among conservative folk today in scripture. I know this steps on the toes of quite a few people, but in all honesty, stop trying to add to the gospel. The gospel of American Patriotism has probably done more harm to 'us' when we do step into the public arena because we've allowed the message of the gospel to be co-opted for political gain and or the rose-colored imaginary "when I was younger" days that everyone wants to turn the country 'back' to (my take: it was never there to begin with....).

I think the 'take our ball and go home' comment was accurate, all things from the folks who call themselves 'dissidents' being taken as true.

On the flip side, if some of TT's reactions as stated by his dissenters are accurate, I can see why the session sided with them over him.

Still, when they return, will they quietly submit to the leadership of the church, or continue to attempt to undermine the pastor ?

 

[BJClark]

Jack K

In my church, our two Sunday services are identical except for the start times... and who shows up. One service tends to attract a younger crowd while most of the older people are at the other. Why is that? Does age, the presence of young children in the family, or some other factor make certain times of day more convenient for people? Or do folks just prefer to worship with their friends of the same generation, so that one age group ends up informally "picking" a particular service? It's probably a bit of both. We don't want it to happen, but it does. And short of major construction on the building to enlarge the meeting space so we can have just one service, we don't know how to fix it.

Ours has been much like that as well, the reasons vary among the folks, but here are a few.

1. some who go to the earlier service do so because they like to be out of church before noon, if they want to do something else they can.
2. some go earlier as it keeps their school age children on the same schedule over the weekend as the weekdays-of getting up early
3. Most like the more contemporary upbeat style of music

Many of our elderly go to the traditional service--but so do many 'younger' folks

1. some live further out and it's a drive for them to get there
2. the drums and guitars affect their hearing aides
3. some prefer not to be on the same schedule they are during the week--getting up early and rushing out the door to be some where..
4. Some have elderly parents in wheel chairs that also want to be in church, and it is difficult to get them there any earlier..

Those are just a few of the things I have heard concerning why various people prefer the different services at our church..

The preaching is the same, the only difference is the style of music..

Our church has even started having a Saturday evening service (which I haven't gone to yet) so I really can't say how many people go or what the generational make up is..or even what the music style is..

 

[Scott1]

Somehow, I see a whole lot of good coming out of this.

The late esteemed Pastor dedicated himself to the cause of Christ and finished well. All of us have a tendency to become "respecters of persons"- it is even happening today around a few visible people in the denomination. Whether we lead, or follow, we're not to become that, yet, as sinners, we have a tendency to do that.

In hindsight, it would appear both groups have not done due diligence toward the reconciliation which is both the command and the fruit of the gospel. Few are in this generation. Think about that before casting the first stone (that goes for all of us).

Yet, in spite of this, we have two biblical reformed churches growing.

The esteemed new Pastor and the existing Session are quite wise to study and teach through Scripture concerning worship, and then combine one basic approach for all services. This unifies. And when Scripture is sought as its basis, we have every reason to believe it greatly pleases our God.

If defined carefully, a 'cultural mandate,' is part of reformed theology, though not the highest priority of it. We have to admit, the reformed church, and broadly evangelical ones, have almost completely retreated from engaging the public morality, some even thinking somehow that makes the church more spiritual.

The consequences of that have been rapid, dramatic and severe, and all, believer and unbeliever, are feeling its effects. Nor has it made the church more spiritual, or so it seems.

I'm thankful the esteemed late Pastor understood this, and did a lot to improve it. He made it priority to win souls, and impact where he lived and beyond. We owe him a great debt of gratitude.

I'm also thankful for the esteemed new Pastor, who is also finding his way toward a powerful reformed church that builds a vital and active covenant community.

He will have the same challenges not encouraging respecters of his great namesake.

But I have faith God has and continues to use great men like this in their generations.

That cannot help but be a good thing for the Body of Christ, for the reformed faith, and for our denomination.