WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
You would be in 100% agreement with Wilson on this issue, Scott. (I also)
Covenant Promise Vs Unconditional Election
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
. . . .But that doesn't mean I'm going to force wine and bread down my children's throat.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Absolutely not. The scriptures are clear on that issue. Paedocommunion is not even a consideration.
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
With respect, you didn't quite answer my question: Do you agree with Wilson or not? It seems that you do.
I agree with your first sentence here, but I am not sure what you mean by your second statement.
Do you have a problem with Matt's criticism of Wilson on this point, or am I misunderstanding him as well?
[Edited on 10-15-2005 by poimen]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Dan,
Matt would agree 100% w/ my statement. There is much more baggage attached to Wilsons position that would conflict with what I am saying. You agree that Christian = disciple, correct?
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I realize that you do not find Wilson to be an orthodox theologian and I don't equate his ideas with yours. For someone to hold to what he does at this point does not make one a heretic; but I think it is confusing and unhelpful. As Matt points out, the danger is that it leads to moralism or nominalism (a la Medievalism).
I just can't reconcile what you said with what Matt says in his book. Nor can I reconcile it with what the 3FU says about Christians. I have compiled it and I can post it elsewhere.
This is the perspective that I am coming from:
WCF, Chapter 14
II. By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein;[5] and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands,[6] trembling at the threatenings,[7] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[8] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[9]
5. II Peter 1:20-21; John 4:42; I Thess. 2:13; I John 5:9-10; Acts 24:14
6. Psa. 119:10-11, 48, 97-98, 167-168; John 14:15
7. Ezra 9:4; Isa. 66:2; Heb. 4:1
8. Heb. 11:13; I Tim. 4:8
9. John 1:12; Acts 15:11, 16:31; Gal. 2:20; II Tim. 1:9-10
Yes, but what kind of disciple? 12 disciples? No, Judas was a reprobate. A disciple, it seems to me, is a follower of Christ. I wouldn't believe that someone who doesn't have faith is a follower of Christ. Judas may have followed Christ around, but he didn't believe.
Perhaps you can show me what you don't agree with about Wilson's position? That would be helpful.
[Edited on 10-15-2005 by poimen]
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Looks like Scripture disagrees with that definition of disciple, though, that is what I'm saying.
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Yes, but do you see what I am saying? 'Disciple' is a fine word to use for Christian except for the fact that it can be understood in more than one sense, as you rightly pointed out. So I wouldn't agree with the word Christian to be equal with disciple, unless you meant disciple in the sense that I gave it above. Therefore the term becomes unhelpful, at least for me, to define what a 'Christian' is.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
So do you think it can be proven from Scripture that Christian = elect?
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
Randy,
You asked from another posting:
You have much hope brother, meaning expectation and not wishful thinking. And the only way you CAN have biblical expectation, biblical hope, is if a promise is given upon which such faith/trust/hope can be laid and only God can do that. Note I do not say presumption but faith as in trust.
This verse is a good verse of course understood correctly and not incorrectly. "œThe effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." The righteous man spoken of in it is none other than the believer. That is the simultaneous sinner/just in Christ alone - Christ alone makes him righteous not himself. Thus, we are spoken of as righteous for Christ´s sake alone, not our works before or after conversion which are in and of themselves sin. As a matter of fact we must repent entirely and especially of our "œgood works" for NOTHING keeps us from grace more strongly than our "œgood works". Even blind and dead pagan´s recognize gross evil deeds, no it is our "œgood works" that hinder us from Christ and grace. The righteous man of faith is a humble man, not actively as in "œI´m humble", but humble passively having been acted upon by God to kill the man´s self righteous and seeking God by his works. You see the difference, if one is IN Christ, one"˜s old man, the "œgood works"œ machine, MUST die. If one thinks, even post "œcoming to the faith"œ, that one is righteous due to some change of himself, one is not of the real faith. I"˜m not saying we don"˜t struggle with it but the old man must be crucified with Christ. The righteous one is one resting in Christ alone plus nothing AT ALL.
So, the prayer that is effective is a prayer of faith (not a prayer of works or righteousness in that sense), being strong in grace, confident in the thrown of grace on account of Christ, the same who is righteous on account of Christ - not "œa righteous man by his deeds". Thus, this prayer does not "œmove God" as in "œI pray it and otherwise change God´s mind or move Him to mercy". Not at all that would make me effectively saying that I´m the real merciful one and higher than God, and that is truly Satanic. No, in faith, trust in Christ alone, I/you/we can pray such prayers and holding to the promise that God has INDEED said He has consideration for our seed, our children, He cannot see our children Whom HE GAVE TO US and not see us Whom His Son´s own blood has covered and redeemed. That hope, that expectation from the Voice of God Himself IS what gives you faith for your children. God has said this promise, don´t listen to "œhath God really said" interpretations of such verses. If one views otherwise one is really saying, in truth and reality, "˜I´m more merciful than God because I want my children saved but I don´t know about God´.
I offer you this much for now for encouragement: Even if you don´t baptize your children, hold to God´s promise for your children, don´t let ridiculous bendings and obvious additions to God´s word of promise rob you of hope He has spoken to you in His word. Trust in Him alone!
Your brother always,
Larry
You asked from another posting:
You have much hope brother, meaning expectation and not wishful thinking. And the only way you CAN have biblical expectation, biblical hope, is if a promise is given upon which such faith/trust/hope can be laid and only God can do that. Note I do not say presumption but faith as in trust.
This verse is a good verse of course understood correctly and not incorrectly. "œThe effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." The righteous man spoken of in it is none other than the believer. That is the simultaneous sinner/just in Christ alone - Christ alone makes him righteous not himself. Thus, we are spoken of as righteous for Christ´s sake alone, not our works before or after conversion which are in and of themselves sin. As a matter of fact we must repent entirely and especially of our "œgood works" for NOTHING keeps us from grace more strongly than our "œgood works". Even blind and dead pagan´s recognize gross evil deeds, no it is our "œgood works" that hinder us from Christ and grace. The righteous man of faith is a humble man, not actively as in "œI´m humble", but humble passively having been acted upon by God to kill the man´s self righteous and seeking God by his works. You see the difference, if one is IN Christ, one"˜s old man, the "œgood works"œ machine, MUST die. If one thinks, even post "œcoming to the faith"œ, that one is righteous due to some change of himself, one is not of the real faith. I"˜m not saying we don"˜t struggle with it but the old man must be crucified with Christ. The righteous one is one resting in Christ alone plus nothing AT ALL.
So, the prayer that is effective is a prayer of faith (not a prayer of works or righteousness in that sense), being strong in grace, confident in the thrown of grace on account of Christ, the same who is righteous on account of Christ - not "œa righteous man by his deeds". Thus, this prayer does not "œmove God" as in "œI pray it and otherwise change God´s mind or move Him to mercy". Not at all that would make me effectively saying that I´m the real merciful one and higher than God, and that is truly Satanic. No, in faith, trust in Christ alone, I/you/we can pray such prayers and holding to the promise that God has INDEED said He has consideration for our seed, our children, He cannot see our children Whom HE GAVE TO US and not see us Whom His Son´s own blood has covered and redeemed. That hope, that expectation from the Voice of God Himself IS what gives you faith for your children. God has said this promise, don´t listen to "œhath God really said" interpretations of such verses. If one views otherwise one is really saying, in truth and reality, "˜I´m more merciful than God because I want my children saved but I don´t know about God´.
I offer you this much for now for encouragement: Even if you don´t baptize your children, hold to God´s promise for your children, don´t let ridiculous bendings and obvious additions to God´s word of promise rob you of hope He has spoken to you in His word. Trust in Him alone!
Your brother always,
Larry
I would have to say that i agree with wilson on the subject thus far of definition of a christian in a two-fold sense, however not on a number of other things. But i do not believe this definition of christian to make you an fv advocate, maybe we should stray from this as i am seeing that it can cause quick division just over a definition.
Just as there were Jews of the synagogue of satan so there should be covenant breaker children that are called christian in the objective sense.
A non Covenant Member that does not believe is a heathen correct? However a covenant member in the objective sense that denies Christ is a covenant-breaker.
Just as there were Jews of the synagogue of satan so there should be covenant breaker children that are called christian in the objective sense.
A non Covenant Member that does not believe is a heathen correct? However a covenant member in the objective sense that denies Christ is a covenant-breaker.
This fits right along with the Christian home being a means of grace to the elect child.
We baptize our children, setting them apart as the Lord's possession. Baptism is a means of grace.
We discipline, admonish, and instruct our children with the scriptures. This is a means of grace.
We read the scriptures with our children. This is a means of grace.
Our children attend the preaching of the Word. This is a means of Grace.
Election is unconditional, yet God works through ordinary means (i.e. the means of grace) to draw His people to Himself. There is a difference between our children and the children of the world. Our children are in contact with the ordinary means of grace, as members of a Christian home and as members of the visible church, apart from which, "there is no ordinary possibilty of salvation" (WCF XXV:2).
First to quote the Confession: "The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered" (WCF XXVIII:6).
At baptism (whether infant baptism or adult baptism) the Word is preached (the Word being the primary means of Grace). Those who are present ought to be reminded of their own baptism; that they too have been set apart as the Lord's.
We and are children, ought to "improve" our baptism. As Christian parents we are to instruct our children in this matter:
[Edited on 10-15-2005 by Dan....]
I must admit that I haven't heard that we should consider an unregenerate a christian. And let's not start the argument about not being able to know who is and who isn't. A profession of faith and right conversation was at least needed. That is why Matthew Mead wrote the book 'The Almost Christian Discovered'.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Matthew Meads book is written for self evaluation; it is not an ecclesiatical tool.
The baptised infant may or may not be converted; he may be regenerate-he may be unregenerate. He is still a Christian. Adisciple is a Christian. A Christian is a disciple. A disciple may not be a member of the invisible church. A disciple IS a member of the visible church.
Steve Owen
Puritan Board Sophomore
Gabriel wrote:-
I can think of no better way to raise a Pharisee in your home than this. There is a deadly danger, even in Baptist churches, that the children of believers will believe themselves to be converted because they are treated as Christians, called 'Covenant Kids' or somesuch nonsense and encouraged to think that if they lead outwardly moral lives and attend the ordinances, that will make them Christians.
For the eternal wellbeing of your children, I can only plead with anyone reading this not to be deceived by this specious nonsense! It is sending them to hell with a pocket-full of promises in their hands. Of course the children of believers have wonderful advantages. Of course it is important for them to sit under the word. But unless a child is born again by the Spirit of God, he cannot so much as see the kingdom of God, much less enter it.
Paul is a wonderful example of a 'covenant kid.' Born into a 'covenant' family, circumcised according to the law, taught the Scriptures from a child, trained in religion- gosh! He'd have been right at home here, wouldn't he? Persecuting true believers? 'Nuff said.
And none of this availed him anything. We all know the word he uses to describe it all (Phil 3:8, KJV if you don't!). But Christ laid hold of him- outside the Church, mark you!- and brought him to Himself, taught not by men but by God (Gal 1:11-12 ).
First of all, it's XXVII.ii, secondly it's not written as Gabriel puts it and thirdly it's wrong anyway.
I can think of no better way to raise a Pharisee in your home than this. There is a deadly danger, even in Baptist churches, that the children of believers will believe themselves to be converted because they are treated as Christians, called 'Covenant Kids' or somesuch nonsense and encouraged to think that if they lead outwardly moral lives and attend the ordinances, that will make them Christians.
For the eternal wellbeing of your children, I can only plead with anyone reading this not to be deceived by this specious nonsense! It is sending them to hell with a pocket-full of promises in their hands. Of course the children of believers have wonderful advantages. Of course it is important for them to sit under the word. But unless a child is born again by the Spirit of God, he cannot so much as see the kingdom of God, much less enter it.
Paul is a wonderful example of a 'covenant kid.' Born into a 'covenant' family, circumcised according to the law, taught the Scriptures from a child, trained in religion- gosh! He'd have been right at home here, wouldn't he? Persecuting true believers? 'Nuff said.
And none of this availed him anything. We all know the word he uses to describe it all (Phil 3:8, KJV if you don't!). But Christ laid hold of him- outside the Church, mark you!- and brought him to Himself, taught not by men but by God (Gal 1:11-12 ).
We are just going to have to disagree on this one Scott. Those dang inferences.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Specifically, what do we disagree on here Randy?
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
First of all, you're wrong, it is XXV. ii. Click here:
Secondly, you're wrong. It says, and I quote:
I said "there is no ordinary possibility of salvation outside of the Church." Where was I wrong, Martin? What did I change?
Thirdly, of course you disagree. That's why you're a Baptist and anti-Presbyterian in ecclesiology and, on certain points, soteriology. That's the whole point.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This one's done.........
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