CREC and ESS

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Eyedoc84

Puritan Board Freshman
ESS explicity denies ontological subordination, does it not? It seems unfair to just label Grudem et al as Arian heretics when they explicitly affirm homoousia. You could argue that logically you end up with two wills and tend toward Arianism, but you can’t just say Nicea already dealt with this. It seems they didn’t, at least not in the way Grudem frames the issue. Grudem affirms Nicea. The confusion to me seems to come with the terms eternal paired with functional, and the debate seems blurred by various (mis)understandings of where the concept of ontology ends and economy begins.
 

Irenaeus

Puritan Board Freshman
@Eyedoc84, it's semi-Arianism stemming from misguided biblicism and a bad habit of seeing God through human eyes - i.e., not grasping that our knowledge of God is analogical.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
ESS explicity denies ontological subordination, does it not? It seems unfair to just label Grudem et al as Arian heretics when they explicitly affirm homoousia. You could argue that logically you end up with two wills and tend toward Arianism, but you can’t just say Nicea already dealt with this. It seems they didn’t, at least not in the way Grudem frames the issue. Grudem affirms Nicea. The confusion to me seems to come with the terms eternal paired with functional, and the debate seems blurred by various (mis)understandings of where the concept of ontology ends and economy begins.

Two wills is tritheism, which is polytheism. They have this problem because they don't understand how eternal generation works. Matthew Barrett wrote the finest modern book on the Trinity and he does a good job on this problem.
 

Eyedoc84

Puritan Board Freshman
Two wills is tritheism, which is polytheism.
Of course. But doesn’t Grudem et al affirm one will? Just because you think his view logically leads to Arianism, and you can certainly argue for that, that’s not the same as him being Arian. I think ESS unnecessarily introduces ideas and language that produce more confusion than clarity, which can certainly lead one down heretical paths.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Of course. But doesn’t Grudem et al affirm one will? Just because you think his view logically leads to Arianism, and you can certainly argue for that, that’s not the same as him being Arian. I think ESS unnecessarily introduces ideas and language that produce more confusion than clarity, which can certainly lead one down heretical paths.

I think he does affirm one will. He updated his ST to include eternal generation, but he refuses to let that correct his theology. I don't think Grudem is an Arian. I don't think he is consistent, either.
 

Ethan

Puritan Board Freshman
Matthew Barrett wrote the finest modern book on the Trinity and he does a good job on this problem.

I found a new youtube channel this week that has a lot of interesting content. Anyway he has an episode with Dr. Barrett and starting at 39:51 he discusses eternal generation and EFS.

 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I found a new youtube channel this week that has a lot of interesting content. Anyway he has an episode with Dr. Barrett and starting at 39:51 he discusses eternal generation and EFS.


Yeah, that's very good. You can't lose sight of the characteristics of the persons: paternity, filiation, and spiration. That's how you distinguish the persons and that is what Ware has specifically rejected.
 

Irenaeus

Puritan Board Freshman
Yeah, that's very good. You can't lose sight of the characteristics of the persons: paternity, filiation, and spiration. That's how you distinguish the persons and that is what Ware has specifically rejected.
@BayouHuguenot, enlighten me here - but do I recall correctly that Ware has gone much farther and doubled down much more insistently on this error than Grudem?
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
@BayouHuguenot, enlighten me here - but do I recall correctly that Ware has gone much farther and doubled down much more insistently on this error than Grudem?

That sounds correct, but I haven't seen any statements from Ware in the last few years. Grudem was willing to be corrected on eternal generation, at least on the surface. There was a pretty big debate at the Henry Center at Trinity where Ware debated some other guy on ESS and in that debate Ware rejected the classical view that we identify the persons by their modes of origination.
 

Taylor

Puritan Board Graduate
There was a pretty big debate at the Henry Center at Trinity where Ware debated some other guy on ESS…
Unless I am mistaken, one of the “other guys” was Tom McCall. I wish I could have been there for that. He was one of my favorite professors, even if he is an Arminian.
 
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