Joseph Scibbe
Puritan Board Junior
Is a picture of a cross (minus a pic of "Jesus") consisered a violation of the 2nd commandment?
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Is a picture of a cross (minus a pic of "Jesus") consisered a violation of the 2nd commandment?
I question whether this should be absolutized.
A "cross" could be shorthand, it could simply be a replacement for the words "church building."
In other words,, just because some people do wrong things with symbols, doesn't mean symbols per se, nor a particular symbol is wrong. There must be other considerations brought to bear.
A "crucifix" contains an illegitimate representation of one Person of the Godhead--ergo, it is idoatrous, and forbidden in any circumstance. Someone could make an argument that a bare "cross" is not appropriate inside a Christian worship service, because it is distracting, or could be used (in some way?) for worship--I don't agree, but it is an argument.
But one of those roadside monuments--three crosses on a hillside? Sinful? Please. I need more than a simplistic rejection of mere symbolism to convict me.
Is a picture of a cross (minus a pic of "Jesus") consisered a violation of the 2nd commandment?
Ultimately, I do not think crosses play a huge role in what is wrong with American Christianity today. I can think of so many things that need to be rooted out, and that one isn't even on my top 100. But it could be a problem, for sure.
I think the second commandment is violate for conceptual reasons--Biblical too but we'll work on the conceptual. ...But because it carries religious significance and therefore creates a worshipping spirit, I would have to say that it does breach the Law.
If we're going to evaluate whether having a cross violates the 2nd commandment, maybe we should all take a closer look at the 2nd commandment instead of assuming so many things. I haven't seen anybody actually make any case for or against while using the actual words of the 2nd commandment. Why not?
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
If we take verse 4 by itself, then that would mean any statue or ANYTHING made in the image of anything that is on earth or in heaven or in the water would be evil.
Looking at verse 5 we see that it's the worship of those things that makes those things idols.
shouldn't that make the answer clear? If you worship the cross rather than the one who died on it, then it is wrong. If you do not worship the cross, then where is the violation? All of the philosophical arguments laid here so far do not answer that. It is the worship of the cross itself that would be the only thing wrong in terms of the 2nd commandment.
I do no know of any church or person who worships the cross itself. Do you?
If we're going to evaluate whether having a cross violates the 2nd commandment, maybe we should all take a closer look at the 2nd commandment instead of assuming so many things. I haven't seen anybody actually make any case for or against while using the actual words of the 2nd commandment. Why not?
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
If we take verse 4 by itself, then that would mean any statue or ANYTHING made in the image of anything that is on earth or in heaven or in the water would be evil.
Looking at verse 5 we see that it's the worship of those things that makes those things idols.
shouldn't that make the answer clear? If you worship the cross rather than the one who died on it, then it is wrong. If you do not worship the cross, then where is the violation? All of the philosophical arguments laid here so far do not answer that. It is the worship of the cross itself that would be the only thing wrong in terms of the 2nd commandment.
I do no know of any church or person who worships the cross itself. Do you?
If we're going to evaluate whether having a cross violates the 2nd commandment, maybe we should all take a closer look at the 2nd commandment instead of assuming so many things. I haven't seen anybody actually make any case for or against while using the actual words of the 2nd commandment. Why not?
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
If we take verse 4 by itself, then that would mean any statue or ANYTHING made in the image of anything that is on earth or in heaven or in the water would be evil.
Looking at verse 5 we see that it's the worship of those things that makes those things idols.
shouldn't that make the answer clear? If you worship the cross rather than the one who died on it, then it is wrong. If you do not worship the cross, then where is the violation? All of the philosophical arguments laid here so far do not answer that. It is the worship of the cross itself that would be the only thing wrong in terms of the 2nd commandment.
I do no know of any church or person who worships the cross itself. Do you?
So then you are saying there is no prohibition against making images? Only the worship of them?
If we're going to evaluate whether having a cross violates the 2nd commandment, maybe we should all take a closer look at the 2nd commandment instead of assuming so many things. I haven't seen anybody actually make any case for or against while using the actual words of the 2nd commandment. Why not?
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
If we take verse 4 by itself, then that would mean any statue or ANYTHING made in the image of anything that is on earth or in heaven or in the water would be evil.
Looking at verse 5 we see that it's the worship of those things that makes those things idols.
shouldn't that make the answer clear? If you worship the cross rather than the one who died on it, then it is wrong. If you do not worship the cross, then where is the violation? All of the philosophical arguments laid here so far do not answer that. It is the worship of the cross itself that would be the only thing wrong in terms of the 2nd commandment.
I do no know of any church or person who worships the cross itself. Do you?
So then you are saying there is no prohibition against making images? Only the worship of them?
If we're going to evaluate whether having a cross violates the 2nd commandment, maybe we should all take a closer look at the 2nd commandment instead of assuming so many things. I haven't seen anybody actually make any case for or against while using the actual words of the 2nd commandment. Why not?
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
If we take verse 4 by itself, then that would mean any statue or ANYTHING made in the image of anything that is on earth or in heaven or in the water would be evil.
Looking at verse 5 we see that it's the worship of those things that makes those things idols.
shouldn't that make the answer clear? If you worship the cross rather than the one who died on it, then it is wrong. If you do not worship the cross, then where is the violation? All of the philosophical arguments laid here so far do not answer that. It is the worship of the cross itself that would be the only thing wrong in terms of the 2nd commandment.
I do no know of any church or person who worships the cross itself. Do you?
So then you are saying there is no prohibition against making images? Only the worship of them?
Yes. For, the making of images could be anything that is made. That would include stuffed animals, pictures of any kind, the making of anything that represents anything on earth would be prohibited.
For, if one makes a cross for the sake of making a cross with no meaning to it whatsoever, how is that breaking a moral commandment? The commandments are deeper than that. The commandments are summed up into two: love God and love your neighbor.
The 2nd commandment is obviously a "love God" commandment, making the love of the graven image made to be the breaking of that commandment, not just the making of the image itself, but the motive. The commandment is about what you love: is it God or is it the graven image?
In having a cross it should be about: do you love God, or do you love the image of the cross?
If you argue for the fact that the image itself is evil, then that is a stipulative argument, meaning you can stipulate the the neglecting of allowing anything to be made that resembles anything God made (i.e., pictures, statues, stuff animals, etc.)
So then you are saying there is no prohibition against making images? Only the worship of them?
Yes. For, the making of images could be anything that is made. That would include stuffed animals, pictures of any kind, the making of anything that represents anything on earth would be prohibited.
For, if one makes a cross for the sake of making a cross with no meaning to it whatsoever, how is that breaking a moral commandment? The commandments are deeper than that. The commandments are summed up into two: love God and love your neighbor.
The 2nd commandment is obviously a "love God" commandment, making the love of the graven image made to be the breaking of that commandment, not just the making of the image itself, but the motive. The commandment is about what you love: is it God or is it the graven image?
In having a cross it should be about: do you love God, or do you love the image of the cross?
If you argue for the fact that the image itself is evil, then that is a stipulative argument, meaning you can stipulate the the neglecting of allowing anything to be made that resembles anything God made (i.e., pictures, statues, stuff animals, etc.)
What I mean is, are you saying that there is no prohibition against making images of God?
No, I'm not saying that, but I think that there would need to be some strong argumentation to prove that a cross is an image of God.
Okay, now I understand.
Nathan, you have a good idea as far as idol worship goes. However, since we live in a climate of diverse groups who lay claim to "Christian orthodoxy" and venerate crosses and religious symbols, we need to revise the arguments in face of opposition.
My position is that if there is some form or way in which the symbol is used to galvanize the worship--the idea of something being done THROUGH the symbol--it is breaching the second commandment.
We need to distinguished outright idolatry from things abused to the point of superstition and idolatry. One concerns the nature of a thing; the other the use of a thing. See A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies by George Gillespie (Naphtali Press, 1993).