Cultural witchcraft in churches

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Leslie

Puritan Board Junior
For those of you ministering in Western cultures, what is the position of your churches on the cultural manifestations of witchcraft? I'm referring to occult-theme video games, Dungeons and Dragons, occult-theme movies, teenagers putting "spells" on each other. Do these practices occur in your churches and, if so, with what degree of approval or disapproval from the leadership or membership? Is involvement with this an issue when teens are baptized or make public profession of faith?
 
I'm not in vocational ministry at all, but I know that in my church, just about anyone who plays video games plays those kinds to an extent without objection. And in the church I just moved away from, those were supplied to the youth by the youth pastor.
 
I think there is probably a big difference in Westerners reading about "occult themes" for even C.S. Lewis' books have "occult themes". But if a church member wore a lucky rabbit's foot or did other superstitious behaviors perhaps they should be talked to. Here even some church members will wear talismans for spiritual protection.
 
I remember believing a bible and a cross under my pillow would keep evil spirits away at night. That is a sort of superstition like witchcraft which is common.
 
Is it wrong to sleep w/ a bible if you do it knowing that there is no supernatural benefit? Just for the emotional comfort.
 
Aren't these replies, except the first, off-topic? Is there a reason for this?

I think that people are trying to work out what a culteral manifestation of witchcraft is, by its very nature we have to look at things that culteraly may on first sight appear to be OK but on deeper analysis do actually exhibit similiar traits i.e. the bible as a fetish.
 
Is it wrong to sleep w/ a bible if you do it knowing that there is no supernatural benefit? Just for the emotional comfort.

It is wrong as we should derive emotional comfort from our Love of God and his redemptive love rather than objects. There is a danger that the physical bible can become an idol.
 
Leslie, I don't these replies are off topic. There are many western superstitions and these superstitions can be roughly lumped into the same category as blatant spells and witchcraft.
 
Evidently I'm not on the same wavelength as all of you and I don't understand why. Keep writing. Maybe I'll learn something.
 
Evidently I'm not on the same wavelength as all of you and I don't understand why. Keep writing. Maybe I'll learn something.

I suppose we have to start by defining what we mean by both witchcraft and by "cultural manifestations".

By witchcraft I think that we mean attempts to influence the physical world (or to interelate with a spiritual world) and by culteral manifestations we are seeking to recognise that what the nature in which such witchcraft will be manifested will change over time and culture.

Going back to your opening post I would suggest that some of the issues that you identify are not witchcraft in themselves but perhaps manifestations of an interest in the possibility or history of witchcraft. The fault of such activities are more in the fact that they are not Godly than they are in themselves satanic. The same critisism could be made of classic literature and Sport but it is a quetion of how they are enjoyed, not that they are enjoyed.

What is necessarily evil are mediums, astrology etc where attempts to influence the physical world is implicit in the act and such activites can never be enjoyed in a Godly manner.
 
I have struggled with definitions and opinions on this; occult themes are so popular in literature these days and the rest of my family loves fantasy literature where witchcraft and occult themes are most likely to appear.

At the very least, witchcraft is grounded in European pagan "natural" religions. At worse, you have individuals trying to "channel" the dead or making blood sacrifices (sometimes using stolen animals, or even leaving cattle to die slowly with symbols cut into them -- don't mean to be gross, but I encountered this in California).

None of this fits my definition of the "good" we are supposed to be pondering; but the rest of my family thinks I'm too hyper. But phooey, I don't even have the time to read, think, and do the many good things that I could be doing much less delving into the occult.
 
I've been reading Witchcraft Goes Mainstream by Brooks Alexander and thus, having been out of US culture for 14 years, realizing the inroads of occult themes into society. From some of the responses, it sounds to me as if people are saying "it's no big deal" as if such games are like granny's cutting off the turkey's tail so the kiddies won't get food poisoning from the leftovers--a silly but harmless superstition.

For me, it seems as if the acceptance of cultural occult themes by believers is treason, like ripping pages out of a Bible to use as toilet paper and saying, "It's just paper" which is true. It's evident that the practice is well accepted in churches.
 
We talk about 'witchcraft' and we think of old women with pointed hats. That is our cultural definition of a witch. If you said that a Buddhist trying to divine the future was witchcraft then people would laugh at you. It is not a European concept of witchcraft but I think it could be argued that it is "wrong".

When the Bible talks about witchcraft I highly doubt it meant pointed hats and broomsticks. There has to be an underlying theory of some sort to define it. As already mentioned with could be communicating with the dead and/or spirits or trying to alter the world around you in a unconventional, "magic" way.
 
I heard that it's dangerous when reformed folk talk about witchcraft :flamingscot:



Anyway, I doubt a child of light (i.e. a Christian) would be a lover of darkness (fantasy, D&D, ocult, Harry Potter, or any other thing that uses paganism/witch craft).
 
I heard that it's dangerous when reformed folk talk about witchcraft :flamingscot:



Anyway, I doubt a child of light (i.e. a Christian) would be a lover of darkness (fantasy, D&D, ocult, Harry Potter, or any other thing that uses paganism/witch craft).

I wish that what you wrote were true. I became involved in table levitation in Youth for Christ as a teenager. I was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons when I volunteered as physician at an SIL training location. Look up old threads and you will find that PB members read Harry Potter with approval. It's scary to me because it seems like treason. It's like a Jewish kid collecting swastikas and playing video games with SS-Nazi-kill-the-Jews themes. But then, maybe I'm just too old and hypersensitive.
 
This is a very interesting topic, and quite controversial! There are truly godly people who recommend the Harry Potter books – saying they have Christian themes within them – and those who thoroughly oppose them. (I once wrote a negative review of the first 5 books titled, “REFLECTIONS OF A FORMER OCCULTIST, NOW THOROUGHLY CONVERTED TO Christ, ON HARRY POTTER”. I have yet to review the last.)

I am using that book as a culturally accepted presentation of witchcraft. I know nothing of D&D, save that the role-playing villainous characters, or even “good” characters who cast spells, is akin to role-playing adultery, etc – in my view. Ditto with the ouija board and its direct demonic activity.

But what about the books and movies which do not require such participation? (I am still pondering the view that acting per se is sinful – a view I saw espoused here on PB – and do not know.)

To me, who grew up in the sixties, with the drugs, Eastern spiritual paths, occult teachings (as in Theosophy, etc) functioning and being conscious in the spiritual or psychic realms is the cultural context I live in; in other words, the secular world of mere material reality is as a cardboard prop in denial of God’s world, with its angelic creatures, demonic invaders, and humans who ally themselves with God or His adversaries.

When I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy – as a Christian, but backslidden – it was a visionary work of sorts, even though an artistic literary production, and in the fantasy genre.

The reality I live in is not the “mere material reality” of many unbelievers. I live in, and participate in, the Global Arena of Consciousness, which is located on Apokalypse Field outside the gates of Eden. There is much occult stuff that goes on here – please note, “occult” comes from a Latin root which means simply hidden from view, as in occult carcinoma or occult blood in the stool, and could as easily apply to the hidden prayers and spiritual warfare of a saint as it could to a demonic practitioner, except for the common usage which refers it only to the demonic. But this is not how I use the term!

The world I occupy is filled with two kinds of people, the unregenerate, and the regenerate – or, in modern parlance, the living dead – zombie, vampire, werewolf – those covered with wondrous skin coverings but within are progeny of the Devil; and the children of light, daughters and sons of the Most High God, filled with His Spirit, and in fierce spiritual combat with the living dead, whom they nonetheless seek to win over to the Light. In the global arena – or the world stage – all manner of voices lifted up, as though a great gladiatorial combat of spiritual warriors, seeking to establish vision of the truth, of the real. Except for the politicians and military – who impact the physical realm greatly – most of the voices lifted up are in the occult and mental regions. This is the world I – and I must say we all, conscious of it or not – live in.

In our literature and film we love to project out of us the spiritual horror of the unregenerate – we as a species – and not own that inwardly this is our own reality. Vampires are but those who psychically drain the vitality of their fellows – sometimes mutually – and the werewolves are those who rage and devour the emotional lives of others. They are of the same line, only they have different feeding styles.

So this talk of occult stuff infiltrating the church is sort of misperceiving the reality. We live in the midst of the occult regions – and where the prime deception is the “New York Times mentality” of a proper world ordered and material in essence – with the task of the people of God being to give discernment of the true and the false in the occult. To herald the One who came into our world a Champion of Light, and rescuer of those turned monsters by the ancient and dread sting of death.

I personally believe there is a new age of presentation of the Gospel coming, one which does not deny or suppress the occult, but exposes it from within, revealing the horror, and the glory. And the church will be seen as a glorious entity dwelling in the midst of dark powers – Christ's own community of saints, the haven of the lost seeking His rescue.
 
Mr. Rafalsky, thank you for your interesting post above. It made me think about when my wife and I recently saw the movie with Will Smith, I Am Legend, which could almost have been written by someone who had your post in front of them to keep them on track.

I wonder if you are at all familiar with the novels of Charles Williams?
 
It seems these discussions always end up either talking about Christian liberty or some arbitrary line between what is good to read and watch and what isn't.

To throw a different sort of wrench into the discussion, what about plants? I've been collecting plants for years that can alter conscience, and many if not most here know one word translated in the NT for sorcery is the same work we get pharmacy from, and those drugs associated with sorcery back then as now come mostly from plants.

So where's the line there? Betel nut, cannabis, opium, several sages, coffee, cacao leaves etc..Which are lawful for medicine or even recreation and which aren't?
 
Ruben, no, I haven’t read any of Williams. I will be sure to check out I Am Legend when it gets to this part of the world in DVD. I’m working on a book of my own, A Great And Terrible Love, which illumines a lot of the stuff touched on in the post above. The genre is visionary adventure nonfiction. I’ve published some pieces from it, and am currently working on it, bit by bit (stealing time from sleep if need be). I often maintain that as arresting and profound as much fantasy, super hero tales, and sci-fi are, what is actual is more so. I wrote a friend,

Re Iron Man, I always look to see if there is any spiritual application to these movies (that’s part of my enjoyment of them). He was “highly armored” — we also have an actual inner armor. I know, it’s so pat that now it’s almost “ho hum” to many folks: “yeah yeah our spiritual armor and all that Ephesians 6 stuff!” It remains, that we have a better shielding of our inner person against far fiercer foes (invisibility-cloaked voracious predators). And if we don’t learn how to activate it we get wasted. And sometimes we are not even aware we are wasted. That’s how subtle this combat is. I spent too many years wasted to be complacent anymore!​

If you’re interested in seeing some stuff from the book, let me know.

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Tim,

An interesting wrench you throw into the works! You said, “So where's the line there? Betel nut, cannabis, opium, several sages, coffee, cacao leaves etc..Which are lawful for medicine or even recreation and which aren't?” Some of these are out of my knowledge, as Betel nut, sages, cacao leaves. I had a discussion with a PB person a while back concerning cannabis (grass), and was surprised that some – even here at PB – advocated for the legalization of grass and hashish, and considered the Feds out of bounds in criminalizing it. It even seemed as they would have no problem using it.

Medical use of narcotics (not psychedelics) is one thing, which I don’t contest. Medical use of marijuana – legal where you are, I know – opens a door to what I call “the satanic wavelength” which, although it may ease some physical and psychological symptoms, devastates spiritually.

I think the principle underlying what are and are not sorcerous drugs / potions / smokes is the nature of the psychoactive effect. Coffee certainly isn’t of that order (though it is a drug I can’t use but in minute quantities these days – just a wee bit in my decaf grounds), but grass, LSD, PCP, peyote, mushrooms, yage, speed, coke, mescaline (and mescal buttons), and crack, ecstasy (though I am not closely familiar with the latter two) and such are clearly in the sorcery category. The aforementioned “psychoactive effect” is that it energizes the faculty within the human being which is able to commune with other spirits, both human and demonic. Hindus matter-of-factly use hashish for just this purpose – contacting spirit entities – in their religion. Certain Native Americans and their shamans do likewise with peyote, mescal buttons, and mushrooms.

Some folks who get high on grass or acid and watch TV are awestruck at the “spiritual” acuity and profundity of the perceptions and dialogue of the actors / actresses, and even the commercials seem to be masterworks. This is not just a “high effect” but reflects the stoned consciousness of many actors / actresses, and perhaps it is commonly known that many creators of commercials have prostituted their gifts by availing themselves of demonic brilliance and depth through enhancing their skills by means of sorcery.

I think the prevalence of drugs, especially grass and hash (the latter derived from the former), is way underrated in our culture. There are a number of books documenting the widespread governmental use of LSD concurrent with (and a bit prior to) the beatnik and hippie phases, especially the CIA, other intelligence agencies, and high-ranking military personnel, even well-known politicians. It was thoroughly experimented with as a means of psychological warfare, as well as consciousness enhancement.

LSD (acid) is also still used, but quietly, without the fanfare of former days. These sorcerous potions inform much of the consciousness of our times. And if they are legalized – which a less conservative government may be prone to do – what is to stop Christians from partaking of them, if a clear Scriptural prohibition is denied?

In the NT (primarily in Revelation) words deriving from the Greek pharmakon (drug, potion) are used to describe an activity; pharmakon may mean, 1) medicine, 2) poison, or 3) magical potion, or a drug used to enchant. Only the third use is feasible in Rev 18:23 (& Gal 5:20), Rev 21:8, and 22:15. If the church is united – at the pastoral level – on this being an activity of the flesh, and one such that the Lord has said practitioners of it will be denied entrance to the gates of the Heavenly City, as will murderers, whoremongers, idolaters, and liars as well (22:15), then the church will be safeguarded whatever the laws of a lawless land permit.
 
Medical use of narcotics (not psychedelics) is one thing, which I don’t contest.

But opium can cause hallucinations, and it's been used forever to relieve pain. And coco leaves are used for tea with no more effect than coffee in Peru. I agree that the church must use her authority to guard against the misuse of plants, but I've never heard of a thorough treatment of the subject from a historical, cultural and scientific viewpoint.

As I said, I've got pretty much everything there is in the greenhouse and garden, and don't use all that, but still I'd like to see a dispassionate discussion or something on the subject.

What did Mandrake really do? If anything? Did the Bible just report the conversation without offering commentary about whether the opinion of the women were right or not?

Just one of a zillion questions I have.
 
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