Cursing and blasphemy in movies/tv

[Caroline]

But I think more to the point is can we delight and "enjoy" something that directly or indirectly blasphemes God?

No, we cannot. Just put it in this context: In watching a movie at the theatre that takes the Lord's name in vain, you have just helped to pay an actor to blaspheme God's name, the God you profess to love.

How's this for an acid test: can you watch a film and then pray: "Lord thank you for that, I pray that you would aid the producers and actors to produce more of the same. Amen."

Also, Lord's Day 36:

Q. 100. Is then the profaning of God's name, by swearing and cursing, so heinous a sin, that his wrath is kindled against those who do not endeavour, as much as in them lies, to prevent and forbid such cursing and swearing?

A. It undoubtedly is, (a) for there is no sin greater or more provoking to God, than the profaning of his name; and therefore he has commanded this sin to be punished with death. (b)
(a)
Prov.29:24 Whoso is partner with a thief hateth his own soul: he heareth cursing, and bewrayeth it not.
Lev.5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
(b)
Lev.24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
Lev.24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Well, it's not like they asked me, though, you know. If I go have my tire changed and it turns out that the guy who changes it takes the name of the Lord in vain the entire time because he struggles getting the rusted bolts loose, then I am paying a guy who is taking the name of the Lord in vain. But I went to have a tire changed, and that is all. Likewise, I go to see a movie. I cannot help it if the actor swears. Somehow, it seems as though because it is a movie, I am suddenly responsible for everything that happens as if I wrote and produced it and had psychic foreknowledge of every line before I sat down. None of those are the case. But something can still be a good movie in spite of some rough words, just as I can still get my tire fixed even by a sinner.

Let's keep some perspective also, that people often do these things in ignorance, not realizing that it is offensive to anyone. Children's shows often take the name of the Lord in vain, because most people simply have no concept of it being 'blasphemy'. Most Christians that I have known do that also, again with no concept of it being 'blasphemy'. Perhaps it is, but if so, then the sin is definitely unintentional, and not the entire basis of what they are saying. (Haven't you ever heard people comment, "Oh my ---, what a great sermon!"? I have. Not at my current church so much, but in other churches, people simply have no idea).

I do often thank the Lord for movies. The Truman Show made a huge impact on my life, although I do not recall off the top of my head whether there was any swearing. Whether there was or not, thank God for that movie.

 

[AThornquist]

If something is prohibited by God, it ought to be avoided by all people and not at all condoned by the children of God. I simply don't see any passage of Scripture that I could use as a basis for saying, "Oh, well I'm not going to do that because I'm a Christian; however, I'm at liberty to watch this other person do that sin since I'm not tempted." Where is the hatred for sin in that mindset? It is good to hate the sin in one's own life, but something is strangely amiss when the sins of others are seen as benign, or at least tolerable for the sake of entertainment.

 

[kvanlaan]

Well, it's not like they asked me, though, you know. If I go have my tire changed and it turns out that the guy who changes it takes the name of the Lord in vain the entire time because he struggles getting the rusted bolts loose, then I am paying a guy who is taking the name of the Lord in vain. But I went to have a tire changed, and that is all. Likewise, I go to see a movie. I cannot help it if the actor swears. Somehow, it seems as though because it is a movie, I am suddenly responsible for everything that happens as if I wrote and produced it and had psychic foreknowledge of every line before I sat down. None of those are the case. But something can still be a good movie in spite of some rough words, just as I can still get my tire fixed even by a sinner.

Not at all the same. In the first case, you should say something to let him know it is offensive. In the second case, you are partaking of this as entertainment. There's something very sick about that, no? Especially in light of Q&A 100 in Lord's Day 36. WE are to endeavour to prevent it and forbid it, I think that much is clear. Going to a movie that uses it flippantly would thus place that movie out of bounds for a believer, would it not? If it comes up, leave.

Let's keep some perspective also, that people often do these things in ignorance, not realizing that it is offensive to anyone. Children's shows often take the name of the Lord in vain, because most people simply have no concept of it being 'blasphemy'. Most Christians that I have known do that also, again with no concept of it being 'blasphemy'. Perhaps it is, but if so, then the sin is definitely unintentional, and not the entire basis of what they are saying. (Haven't you ever heard people comment, "Oh my ---, what a great sermon!"? I have. Not at my current church so much, but in other churches, people simply have no idea).

Have they never read the Ten Commandments? The statement bolded above is very odd.

 

[Andres]

Let us agree that we should take a stand against the entertainment industry using the Lord's name in vain. Ergo, if a movie/tv show/song uses the Lord's name in vain, we will refuse to watch/listen to it. But how do you handle people around you taking the Lord's name in vain? For example, Caroline raises a good point - what if you heard your mechanic take the Lords name in vain while working on your car? Do you think it's fitting to admonish him? Or what if someone says it like the Oh, my goodness way - should we say something to that person? I struggle with this because my first instinct is to tell them something, but i must admit I rarely do.

 

[kvanlaan]

Andrew, I have to agree on all counts. I don't always when I should, but I always should.

 

[Andres]

Andrew, I have to agree on all counts. I don't always when I should, but I always should.

Thanks. I wasn't sure if I always should or not. I almost always feel I should, but then I wonder if I'm being self-righteous to say, "hey stop using the Lord's name in vain". Or what is the best way to say it so it does not come across as self-righteous or pretentious?

 

[Philip]

Our convictions range between:
1. all entertainment is generally okay if we partake of it righteously
2. some forms of entertainment may be okay if we partake of them righteously
3. most entertainment is not okay with the exception of some which can be more easily partaken of righteously
4. there is no such thing as entertainment partaken of righteously

My own view is actually that most forms of entertainment may be partaken of, if we do so righteously---obviously, certain forms of entertainment are inherently sinful (eg: p0rnography).

We must, after all, remember that "The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." Enjoying God includes enjoying things like art, music, wine, literature, food, and the company of the believers. .

I understand that some amongst us may be libertarian-leaning, but this is starting to sound hedonistic.

How so? Does one have to be a hedonist to enjoy God's good gifts? Why were these things given, if not for our enjoyment under God?

Now, on the original subject:

Here's a quandary. You are on a tour of Turkey and have the opportunity to tour the Hagia Sophia, an ancient church in Istanbul known for its icons of Christ (assuming you have scruples on this point). Would you pay the money or not?

 

[christiana]

Yes it is sinful. The short answer is, 'How can I say I love Christ when I watch things that He hates?

These words from Josh will be in my mind from now on whenever I turn on the TV! I so agree with this and know we are so easily conformed to this world over time as the wiles of Satan sneak into our thinking and mold us daily to be less aware and cautious of his ways to jeopardize our walk with our Lord! May I become ever watchful and prevent such as this!!

 

[kvanlaan]

My own view is actually that most forms of entertainment may be partaken of, if we do so righteously---obviously, certain forms of entertainment are inherently sinful (eg: p0rnography).

How do you 'righteously' take part in something that uses the Lord's name in vain, in light of the confessions?

 

[Soonerborn]

I appreciate this thread and will offer something. I enjoy movies and my wife and I watch movies together. However, at times I do feel convicted that what I am watching is not glorifying to God and His kingdom and not sanctifying to my eternal soul. The fact of the matter is, I have images and words of inappropriate movies and TV shows in my head to this day that I watched as a teenager 20 years ago. Everything we do has consequences.

Please don't get me wrong, I am by no means saying movies are wrong. Personally, I have to be careful with myself using "Christian Liberty" as a reason to watch a certain movie. If I were completely honest with myself, "Christian Liberty" may not be the real reason for me watching a specific movie (even though I tell myself it is), but "indulgence of the flesh" would be closer to the honest reason.

Personally, I think for me I am beginning to struggle not with the question of "Can I do it", but, "Should I do it".

 

[Caroline]

I don't think I would concede Andrew's idea that we must take a stand against people who use the name of the Lord in vain in the entertainment industry. I think that falls under the category of judging those outside the church (I Cor 5, which was mentioned on another thread). Leave it to God to judge them. We are not Messiahs, and we cannot set everything in the whole world right. This is not condoning it--but a simple admission that God is God and we are not. Not only the entertainment industry, but all creation groans (Rom 8). To toss out an entire movie because of one word is a little bizarre. If your math instructor uses the name of the Lord in vain, that is regrettable, but it doesn't mean that you can't learn calculus from her, nor that you are called upon to stand up in front of the class and shout her down. And I think most people would even agree with me on this point.

There's a tendency to categorize something differently because it is 'entertainment', as in 'well, it is only entertainment. We must have a tire fixed or learn math, but you don't really need entertainment'. I guess I don't see it that way.

I'm sure everyone here is getting sick of my UPCI stories, but I'm afraid I must drag yet another one out to make my point. In the UPCI, no one is allowed to watch TV or go to movies. The books that you can read are highly restricted also. In many churches, sports are not allowed. And much of this same justification is used for it--well, these things could be displeasing to God. How do you know if you sit down to watch a movie that someone won't utter a swear word? And if they do, how do you know that it won't sink into your heart and contaminate you? Are you willing to risk going to hell for two hours of entertainment? Wouldn't this time be better spent reading the Bible, praying, speaking in tongues, or cleaning the pastor's house?

The result of this, however, is what is known in cult studies as 'milieu control'. The person at the top (or the organization) controls the information that you have access to. You are not allowed to read, see, or study anything that is not in agreement with the group. Ignorance is a powerful weapon, and it has damned many a soul. When you are kept in an environment that bombards you constantly with a certain viewpoint (that the Trinity does not exist, for example), and then prevents you from being able to read anything that opposes this viewpoint (because it is 'blasphemous' and/or displeasing to the Lord), then how can you evaluate it properly? Entertainment is not always merely 'entertainment'. Books and movies and songs often convey powerful messages. They may be good messages or bad messages, but they are not indifferent, and cults know this, and that is why they suppress them. Of course, not everything is equally powerful or meaningful, and there are some books that I have read and thought, "Well, there's a few hours of my life that I will never get back." But still, that's not to say that all books are meaningless, even novels.

I don't think that merely because this is the case means that every Christian is obligated to watch or read or listen to a variety of material, and if they are not edified by it, then they should find things more helpful to them. However, I would go so far as to say that an attitude that these thing MUST not be watched/read/etc is, in my opinion, not a sign of strength but of weakness. If someone's God cannot stand up to Star Wars, then He is no God. If He can't maintain someone's salvation as they watch Spongebob, then He is too weak to save. And that is my conclusion with the UPCI. Yes, they were right about one thing--when I began to read and watch and think, I 'fell away'. Because that's what people do when they realize something is a lie.

The idea then of placing all kinds of restrictions--'must not watch', 'must not read', 'this might offend God', 'this might send me to hell' seems foolhardy, a return to milieu control. If I thought those restrictions were necessary to maintain my faith (and I do not, so don't panic here), then I would take a good hard look at whether my faith was worth maintaining. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[Jared]

I have to admit that I haven't been following this thread. But I would like to make a couple of comments. First of all, I watched The Karate Kid with my wife. We were disappointed that Jaden Smith, who is only 12 uses profanity in the film. Jackie Chan's character tries to correct him in one of the scene's, but I can't help but think that this is just a subtle ploy to attempt to acclimate people to the idea of a child using language like that. I'm aware that there are older films that feature children using profanity, but it has always been difficult for me to watch. When adults use language like that, it's annoying, but when children use language like that, it's heart-breaking.

I have also wondered about books by Ayn Rand for instance. I know that she was an atheist, and so she's not being hypocritical by using language like that in her books, but I still wonder about it. At the same time, it could help to have the kind of knowledge that comes along with studying atheistic philosophy in order to know how to respond to an atheist.

 

[LeeJUk]

I can't imagine a soldier on the front lines in WWII kicking back in his foxhole and reading a magazine while being fired upon.

And yet I can certainly imagine him doing so during a lull in the battle. I can certainly imagine an officer during the Civil War taking a rest with the latest installment of Hugo's Les Miserables or (as Chamberlain often did) with Homer. I think our duty as Christians is to choose our entertainment, our wine, any pleasure, wisely and well---choose only the best.

Does the spiritual war that we are engaged in have lulls?
Even if it did, i don't see most entertaining themselves during lulls, but rather spending much of their time and effort on it.

The kind of spiritual war you advocate will lead to a exhaustion and burn out.

You gotta have time for relaxation, entertainment and doing the things you enjoy. God gave us these things as gifts. It may not be movies but it may be something else.

 

[kvanlaan]

I don't think I would concede Andrew's idea that we must take a stand against people who use the name of the Lord in vain in the entertainment industry. I think that falls under the category of judging those outside the church (I Cor 5, which was mentioned on another thread). Leave it to God to judge them.

We are not talking about judging them, we are talking about not consuming these things in the name of entertainment. There is no upside to this - simply letting it wash over us and sit passively by is to denigrate God's holy name. If we do not honor it with even a peep when it is blasphemed, what then does the third commandment mean to us? What does it mean to be a beacon on a hill in this regard? Salt of the earth? (I can see this as very much being an example of us being trampled into the soil and having no flavor). It is our passivity in this which has lead to His name being a cuss word. Shame on us.

We are not Messiahs, and we cannot set everything in the whole world right.

So neither should we protest or try to change abortion? What makes the sixth commandment more important than the fourth?

This is not condoning it--but a simple admission that God is God and we are not. Not only the entertainment industry, but all creation groans (Rom 8). To toss out an entire movie because of one word is a little bizarre. If your math instructor uses the name of the Lord in vain, that is regrettable, but it doesn't mean that you can't learn calculus from her, nor that you are called upon to stand up in front of the class and shout her down. And I think most people would even agree with me on this point.

No one said anything about shouting her down. How is it possible to shout someone down in love? But to politely ask that she not blaspheme the name of our Lord and Saviour? Where is the issue with that? It is no more than we should do.

There's a tendency to categorize something differently because it is 'entertainment', as in 'well, it is only entertainment. We must have a tire fixed or learn math, but you don't really need entertainment'. I guess I don't see it that way.

So give some reasons for it, based on Scripture. Opinions do not constitute truth.

I'm sure everyone here is getting sick of my UPCI stories, but I'm afraid I must drag yet another one out to make my point. In the UPCI, no one is allowed to watch TV or go to movies. The books that you can read are highly restricted also. In many churches, sports are not allowed. And much of this same justification is used for it--well, these things could be displeasing to God. How do you know if you sit down to watch a movie that someone won't utter a swear word? And if they do, how do you know that it won't sink into your heart and contaminate you? Are you willing to risk going to hell for two hours of entertainment? Wouldn't this time be better spent reading the Bible, praying, speaking in tongues, or cleaning the pastor's house?

The result of this, however, is what is known in cult studies as 'milieu control'. The person at the top (or the organization) controls the information that you have access to. You are not allowed to read, see, or study anything that is not in agreement with the group. Ignorance is a powerful weapon, and it has damned many a soul. When you are kept in an environment that bombards you constantly with a certain viewpoint (that the Trinity does not exist, for example), and then prevents you from being able to read anything that opposes this viewpoint (because it is 'blasphemous' and/or displeasing to the Lord), then how can you evaluate it properly? Entertainment is not always merely 'entertainment'. Books and movies and songs often convey powerful messages. They may be good messages or bad messages, but they are not indifferent, and cults know this, and that is why they suppress them. Of course, not everything is equally powerful or meaningful, and there are some books that I have read and thought, "Well, there's a few hours of my life that I will never get back." But still, that's not to say that all books are meaningless, even novels.

I don't think that merely because this is the case means that every Christian is obligated to watch or read or listen to a variety of material, and if they are not edified by it, then they should find things more helpful to them. However, I would go so far as to say that an attitude that these thing MUST not be watched/read/etc is, in my opinion, not a sign of strength but of weakness. If someone's God cannot stand up to Star Wars, then He is no God. If He can't maintain someone's salvation as they watch Spongebob, then He is too weak to save. And that is my conclusion with the UPCI. Yes, they were right about one thing--when I began to read and watch and think, I 'fell away'. Because that's what people do when they realize something is a lie.

The idea then of placing all kinds of restrictions--'must not watch', 'must not read', 'this might offend God', 'this might send me to hell' seems foolhardy, a return to milieu control. If I thought those restrictions were necessary to maintain my faith (and I do not, so don't panic here), then I would take a good hard look at whether my faith was worth maintaining. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

When God Himself asks us not to blaspheme, when what we confess gives us the same direction (and more, in that we must oppose it), is that 'milieu control'? Nonsense.

Question 113: What are the sins forbidden in the third commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the third commandment are, the not using of God's name as is required; and the abuse of it in an ignorant, vain, irreverent, profane, superstitious, or wicked mentioning, or otherwise using his titles, attributes, ordinances, or works, by blasphemy, perjury; all sinful cursings, oaths, vows, and lots; violating of our oaths and vows, if lawful; and fulfilling them, if of things unlawful; murmuring and quarreling at, curious prying into, and misapplying of God's decrees and providences; misinterpreting, misapplying, or any way perverting the Word, or any part of it, to profane jests, curious or unprofitable

Questions, vain janglings, or the maintaining of false doctrines; abusing it, the creatures, or anything contained under the name of God, to charms, or sinful lusts and practices; the maligning, scorning, reviling, or anywise opposing of God's truth, grace, and ways; making profession of religion in hypocrisy, or for sinister ends; being ashamed of it, or a shame to it, by unconformable, unwise, unfruitful, and offensive walking, or backsliding from it.

Question 114: What reasons are annexed to the third commandment?

Answer: The reasons annexed to the third commandment, in these words, The Lord thy God, and, For the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain, are, because he is the Lord and our God, therefore his name is not to be profaned, or any way abused by us; especially because he will be so far from acquitting and sparing the transgressors of this commandment, as that he will not suffer them to escape his righteous judgment, albeit many such escape the censures and punishments of men.

 

[Christusregnat]

I am okay with blasphemy in a movie, so long as the story line gives the blasphemer what he deserves: death.

 

[KaphLamedh]

If in movies or TV-series has cursing or blasphemy, I don´t watch them. If people in our jobs or in schools cursing and blasphemy, we can´t so anything but pray and maybe say that they should stop that, but movies and TV we can turn off.

 

[ThomasCartwright]

I am a little surprised that Reformed believers here are arguing that what we think upon seems to have no impact on how we act. This is what I wrote recently for an article:

The temptation for all of us is to simply conform to the dress, conversation, and lifestyle of those around us. For instance, many Christian parents think nothing of watching with their children TV shows or movies that are full of blasphemy, sexual perversion, nudity, and violence. Subsequently, these same parents bewail the fact that their children imitate the behaviour of these onscreen actors despite the clear biblical warning, “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners,” (1 Corinthians 15:33) and “Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.” (Deuteronomy 7:26).

 

[Der Pilger]

If God has chosen not to create magic, am I not showing some form of agreement contrary to God's end in creation? Thereby, implying He has not done it right?

Merely watching something does not constitute agreement with it. It could, but not necessarily. If you are watching a movie about Robin Hood, does that in itself mean you are agreeing with thievery? I doubt it.

Also think about the nature of stage acting in Narnia, is it right to be supporting a form of lying? Take Rev. Macleod's reasoning in the article above: Indeed there is something false about all acting – when people take on someone else's character and have to pretend to express someone else's emotions. This is quite out of keeping with what God demands in the Ninth Commandment: perfect truthfulness. It is, in effect, bearing "false witness" to others.

That's a bit much. I don't think it can be considered false witness to others because everyone concerned understands in advance that it is just acting. Therefore, nobody is being deceived.

As I see it, we need to be careful about what goes into the mind because of its potential influence upon our thinking. Carnal, worldly thinking can subtly, imperceptibly worm its way into our thought life if we submit to it repeatedly, making itself seem more and more acceptable as time passes. And what abounds in the heart has a tendency to manifest itself, sooner or later, in our outward conduct. The outward life is inseparable from, and flows out of, the inner person (Mt. 5:27; Mt. 12:34; Mark 7:21-23). It's no wonder that we are told to love God not only with our heart, soul and strength but also with the mind.

Edit: I just noticed that Dr. Ferguson said essentially the same thing as I just did above. I agree!

 

[christianhope]

Well I missed a day on this thread, but would like to give my comments why I think watching movies for entertainment is wrong.

While "hypocrite" does mean stage actor...I don't think Jesus was commenting on the theatre of the day.
Jesus was rebuking the person who would try to lead a double life, pretending to be one thing when in reality they were not.
in my opinion it seems most likely that Jesus was not making a judgment upon drama in the passages you reference.

First it is known the greek culture during the time of Christ had a very great bent towards the theatre, therefore when I read Christ's words in Matthew 7:5 "Thou Hypocrite (Literally 'stage actor' in greek)" - I can know that Christ was using that term pejoratively, as if Christ were to say "You prostitute!" Or "You blasphemer!" Of course I believe the primary intent of Christ was to point out the sin of the pharisees who were living a double life, yet, this term is very clearly pejorative in nature and therefore, instructive for His people. For example, if Christ called someone a prostitute in a spiritual sense by saying "You prostitute!" That would not mean that He was approving of prostitution, even though he wasn't speaking about a physical prostitution in that verse. Such is the use of 'stage actor' it implies disapproval via the context and usage of the term.

Second, I don't see how actors can perform their roles without sin. For example, is it ever right for someone to 'pretend to pray?' Or how about to pretend to be another man's wife, or a wife's husband on the screen? What about the implications of bedroom scenes, even if nothing is seen, yet the implication is that this man slept with so and so etc. Such things are truly vile and of great reproach in the sight of God. It is contrary to the 9th commandment which requires truthfulness and is therefore blatant sin. Therefore, if it is sin for the actors, why would anyone willingly submit themselves to watching such? To do so is also sin, because you are agreeing and/or accepting of the sin of the actors to a certain degree at least, because you've chosen to place other mens sin before your eyes for your own entertainment.

Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

I would be interested in hearing other's thoughts, though of course I am convinced myself my conclusions are correct. Christians should not watch movies lest they partake in other men's sins.

 

[Der Pilger]

Steve, I would submit to you that reading novels for entertainment alone is not right either. Though I think they are much harder to categorize than movies, because in movies you actually have real people 'stage acting' which is a implied evil by our Lord, such as in Matt 7:5. But there can be helpful fiction, such as 'Pilgrims Progress.' I also believe documentaries are in line with a christian's calling, being they do not require stage acting, and are for genuine educational purposes.

For myself, I don't understand how entertainment such as fantasy novels have any place in the christian life. What benefit does it offer? How does it help me glorify God? It doesn't. Therefore it's out.

What about the following:

• Playing a sport
• Playing a leisurely game of chess
• Going to a concert of classical music

Assuming all these activities are done merely for entertainment/recreation, do they help you glorify God? If so, how? When Christians do them, are they laying down their cross instead of taking it up?

 

[Tripel]

Josh,
It's been mentioned a couple times now, and I don't think you've addressed it. Actors are not deceiving. People who watch movies are not being deceived into thinking that they are viewing a real slice of life. The audience knows they are acting, so how is that deception???

 

[christianhope]

What about the following:

* Playing a sport
* Playing a leisurely game of chess
* Going to a concert of classical music


Assuming all these activities are done merely for entertainment/recreation, do they help you glorify God? If so, how? When Christians do them, are they laying down their cross instead of taking it up?

Playing sports for exercise possibly have a little redeeming value. Though sports such as boxing and football do not conform to the sixth commandment due to the nature of the sport. It's abuse of the body in ways God does not intend.

Playing Chess and going to a classical music concert? Those things would be wrong if they were indulged in, i.e. To purposefully desire absence of Christ through personal diversions is a sign of the sinfulness and hardness of our hearts.

 

[Der Pilger]

What about the following:

* Playing a sport
* Playing a leisurely game of chess
* Going to a concert of classical music


Assuming all these activities are done merely for entertainment/recreation, do they help you glorify God? If so, how? When Christians do them, are they laying down their cross instead of taking it up?

Playing sports for exercise possibly have a little redeeming value. Though sports such as boxing and football do not conform to the sixth commandment due to the nature of the sport. It's abuse of the body in ways God does not intend.

So let's say you are playing baseball with some friends for recreation. No abuse of the body there. Would that help you glorify God? If so, how?

Playing Chess and going to a classical music concert? Those things would be wrong if they were indulged in, i.e. To purposefully desire absence of Christ through personal diversions is a sign of the sinfulness and hardness of our hearts.

Yes, but like I said, "Assuming all these activities are done merely for entertainment/recreation," do they help you glorify God? If so, how?

 

[christianhope]

Josh,
It's been mentioned a couple times now, and I don't think you've addressed it. Actors are not deceiving. People who watch movies are not being deceived into thinking that they are viewing a real slice of life. The audience knows they are acting, so how is that deception???

Danial, my apologies, I don't mean to evade the question and I'm glad you brought it up. First, actors are not intentionally deceiving, but that does not make what they are doing right. For instance, I would ask you straight up: "Is it ever right for a man to pretend to pray?" (Even though they are just "acting?") "Is it ever right for a man to 'pretend' to kiss another man's wife?" Please address this, because this is the heart of the issue for me.

 

[TexanRose]

I'm with Josh on this one. I don't see how it's okay to pretend to sin. And I can't think of a movie I watched, back in the day when I watched movies, in which an actor wasn't acting a sin. Even in "good" movies which condemn evil, there is usually a "bad guy" pretending to sin. As I tell my kids, "If it's not okay to do it, it's not okay to pretend to do it."

I'm convinced that the early church and the Puritans all condemned acting and the theater. I'm comforted to know that my church and family and I are not alone in our views, and that we have the weight of church history and Godly tradition behind us.

A lot of people think that they will be just miserable if they don't condone acting. They think that life would be drudgery without their favorite TV shows or movies. But it doesn't have to be that way! Life can be very rich and full without Hollywood.

I think that TV desensitized me to the vileness of blasphemy. I always knew that it was wrong to use the Lord's name in vain, but now that I don't voluntarily place myself in a position to hear it as often, I cringe a little more when I do hear it.

I knew a girl who managed to correct co-workers using the Lord's name in vain in a good-natured sort of way. She would just say "Hey! Language!" People would look at her strangely but were usually able to figure out, based on the context, what language she was objecting to. After a while some of the most habitual blasphemers learned to clean up their language when they were around her, and would say "Oops, sorry," when they let something slip. She was well-liked despite her scruples.

 

[Der Pilger]

Josh,
It's been mentioned a couple times now, and I don't think you've addressed it. Actors are not deceiving. People who watch movies are not being deceived into thinking that they are viewing a real slice of life. The audience knows they are acting, so how is that deception???

Danial, my apologies, I don't mean to evade the question and I'm glad you brought it up. First, actors are not intentionally deceiving, but that does not make what they are doing right. For instance, I would ask you straight up: "Is it ever right for a man to pretend to pray?" (Even though they are just "acting?") "Is it ever right for a man to 'pretend' to kiss another man's wife?" Please address this, because this is the heart of the issue for me.

That's just it: Pretending is not the same as deceiving. It's role-playing, and that is not deliberate, calculated deception of another person. It's pretending for a purpose other than deception. That's why I don't think your argument works. You are narrowly defining all pretending as deception. If that were true, then when children play "make-believe" and pretend with each other, they are committing sin.

Edit: I'd say that the second example--pretending to kiss another man's wife--is wrong. It's not the pretending itself that is wrong, though, but rather the displaying of a sinful act, doing which could legitimize it in the eyes of others.

 

[christianhope]

Jeremy, thanks for your thought provoking questions, I will try to answer them.

So let's say you are playing baseball with some friends for recreation. No abuse of the body there. Would that help you glorify God? If so, how?

I would distinguish 'recreation' in the following sense: If those actions can be performed in a spirit of submission and desire for Christ, then I would say they are good and glorifying to God. But if they are performed with a desire to forget about Him they are wrong, also, if those activities are not necessary, yet, they tend to take your mind off of God, then they should not be performed and would in those cases be sin. Further, sports played on a professional level are a source of much sin and should not be participated in by christians. (Due to the idolatry and vanity these professions promote)

Yes, but like I said, "Assuming all these activities are done merely for entertainment/recreation," do they help you glorify God? If so, how?

If performing those activities merely for entertainment, yes, I would say that is sin. Consider how mere entertainment and recreation is contrary to: Pro 23:17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long. Also, this mindset of entertainment is contrary to:

1Pe 1:17-19
(17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
(18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

To me the idea of 'entertainment' in and for itself, just does not fit with the Word of God. Consider what the scripture teaches concerning the raising of our children as well:

Deu 6:6-9
(6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
(7) And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
(8) And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
(9) And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Above we are shown that 'whatever we do' we are to be instructing our children in the things of God. If I can play chess with this mindset and end, to teach my child to fear the Lord, discussing the things of God over such a game, then I think that is a legitimate use and in conformity to Duet 6:6-9. Yet, that command is not just in the case of fathers and their children, but also in everything, 1 Cor 10:31 "whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." Christians today have strayed far from this mark, and I would hope to see a reformation in the way the visible church fears the Lord and seeks His glory in everything they do.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[Tripel]

I would ask you straight up: "Is it ever right for a man to pretend to pray?" (Even though they are just "acting?") "Is it ever right for a man to 'pretend' to kiss another man's wife?" Please address this, because this is the heart of the issue for me.

Pretending to pray? Not a problem.
Kissing another man's wife? I'm not sure. I've thought about this issue a great deal in the past, but I haven't come to a conclusion. I'm probably leaning more towards it being a sin.

But why, exactly, is it a sin for me to watch other people portraying sin? Is it worse for me to watch people "pretending" to sin rather than actually sinning, as they do in everyday life?

 

[christianhope]

That's just it: Pretending is not the same as deceiving. It's role-playing, and that is not deliberate, calculated deception of another person. It's pretending for a purpose other than deception. That's why I don't think your argument works. You are narrowly defining all pretending as deception. If that were true, then when children play "make-believe" and pretend with each other, they are committing sin.

Jeremy, it's good to hear your thoughts, but I do not agree, I will try to explain my position more clearly so you can better judge for yourself.

Just because children pretend and 'make believe' doesn't justify stage acting. Christ condemned it in the New Testament during His time, (Matt 7:5) neither should the example of adults be taken from foolish children's folly. The bible is full of examples of the 'sins of youth' Job 20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth... Psa 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth... Pretending for the purpose of instruction in glorifying God is good, for example, in giving instruction to children, but to pretend merely for the sake of entertainment, especially in such blasphemous cases as actor's 'pretending to pray' is a great sin in the sight of God and promotes lightness and hardness of heart in His people. The pretending of children is obviously a very light fault, though I do not think it is right. The proper training of children in more christian ages than ours was to inhibit such folly and to train the mind, not to promote such childish vanities, but to harness and equip them for the glory of God.

Also, the argument of 'calculated deception' alone being the only type of pretending that breaks the 9th commandment is not true. It is certainly true that calculated deception is far worse, but pretending for the sake of entertainment is vanity and sin and contrary to the christian charter of the glory of God. I do not hold that 'all pretending' is wrong, for example, pretending in giving instruction to my children concerning the things of God would be an example of right use, but the movie industry, never uses it for this end. Movies today, even supposedly 'good christian films' are generally rife with instances of sinful forms of pretending. Therefore it is not right for christians to watch movies for the sake of entertainment and recreation. Are there not better way to spend our time? Are we not commanded to rather 'redeem the time? (Eph 5:16)' instead of wasting it on light sin and vanity?

 

[Der Pilger]

Jeremy, thanks for your thought provoking questions, I will try to answer them.

So let's say you are playing baseball with some friends for recreation. No abuse of the body there. Would that help you glorify God? If so, how?

I would distinguish 'recreation' in the following sense: If those actions can be performed in a spirit of submission and desire for Christ, then I would say they are good and glorifying to God.

Okay, so that leads to yet another question: How can I play baseball or chess "in a spirit of submission and desire for Christ"? Chess and baseball in and of themselves do not glorify God, at least not in any way that I can see, so how can I play them with an ongoing, consistent mindset of submitting to Christ? How am I to submit to Christ when I move the pawn two spaces forward? When my knight captures a pawn, how do I do that in a spirit of submission and desire for Christ? I'm not disagreeing with you; I am genuinely curious about this.

But if they are performed with a desire to forget about Him they are wrong, also, if those activities are not necessary, yet, they tend to take your mind off of God, then they should not be performed and would in those cases be sin.

Thanks for your answer. I agree that everything should be done for Christ. The problem with your answer, as I see it, is your criterion that the activity not get your mind off of God. That means that you have to maintain a consciousness of God every single minute that you are playing it. Otherwise, your mind is being taken off of God, which you say is what should be avoided. But do we really have a non-stop consciousness of God when we engage in such amoral activities as baseball, chess, or a classical-music concert?

Yes, but like I said, "Assuming all these activities are done merely for entertainment/recreation," do they help you glorify God? If so, how?

If performing those activities merely for entertainment, yes, I would say that is sin. Consider how mere entertainment and recreation is contrary to: Pro 23:17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long. Also, this mindset of entertainment is contrary to:

1Pe 1:17-19
(17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
(18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

I don't see how entertainment is contrary to the fear of God unless it is explicitly upholding something sinful. I don't see how playing baseball or chess, for example, keeps me from fearing God as long as they are not done with a sinful motive.

To me the idea of 'entertainment' in and for itself, just does not fit with the Word of God. Consider what the scripture teaches concerning the raising of our children as well:

Deu 6:6-9
(6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
(7) And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
(8) And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
(9) And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Above we are shown that 'whatever we do' we are to be instructing our children in the things of God.

I'm not 100% sure that the intent of the text is that we should be instructing our children in the word of God in every activity. I think the point of the passage is that instructing our children in the truth should be so central to our lives that it happens every day, throughout the day. That, however, does not have to mean that the instruction takes place in every single activity without exception. I could be wrong about this, but it seems like you are taking that text beyond its intention.

Christians today have strayed far from this mark, and I would hope to see a reformation in the way the visible church fears the Lord and seeks His glory in everything they do.

I agree that Christendom in general needs to strive more for a lifestyle in which all is done for God's glory.